3 months out, USATF posts entry info for Grand Rapids nationals

1cface1b-5a56-4591-a1f6-13cbe961102fMasters nationals begin three months from today (Thursday). At last, I’m informed, USATF has posted entry information for Grand Rapids. (See it here.) Now the clock is ticking toward June 16 deadline for standard online or paper entry. But I’m still mystified that a solid birth-record database is not in place. We’re told: “USATF also recommends athletes bring a copy of their proof-of-age document to packet pick-up as a back-up measure — a proof-of-age document is required prior to receiving competitor packets.” Newbies, maybe. But why should entrants (like me) who have been to nationals for decades have to carry proof of age? In any case, we can now expect to see the Status of Entries page fill out. As of Thursday, only two athletes are shown as entered.

Print Friendly

April 14, 2016

43 Responses

  1. Peter L. Taylor - April 15, 2016

    I agree with you, Ken, about having a good birth-record database. In some ways, our insistence that someone who has competed in more than 30 nationals and set 2 or 3 American records in the process should bring a proof-of-age document (which might get lost at the meet) is a bit demeaning.

    As far as the schedule, I fully appreciate how difficult it is to set forth a schedule for the masters, where the same event happens over and over again, often on multiple days. I would never want that job. That being said, the schedule presented here has shortcomings.

    800 meters. Trials are listed for Thursday, with finals on Saturday. Last year (Jacksonville) we had no trials listed in the 800, and that was the case for Winston-Salem in 2014. Why bring them back?

    If you sign up for the standard 800-1500 double you have to fly out to Grand Rapids on Wednesday, show up at the stadium on Thursday and then run the very large risk of being told that your 800 has “rolled to a final” on Saturday.

    On Sunday you come back for the 1500. This is a terrible system for people who are employed, as your last day at work would be Tuesday but you often would not run at all until Saturday. Let’s bury the 800 trials again.

    I noticed that we also have trials in the long hurdles. I wonder why, as last year in Jacksonville we did not have trials in this event. Further, I thought that Grand Rapids had 9 lanes. Has there ever been a 5-year age group in the history of US masters that had more than 9 outstanding hurdlers willing to go to nationals? I think not. If in the extraordinary instance there are 10 people who not only sign up but also show up to hurdle on the appointed day, just run 2 sections of 5 on time.

    I would like to know what David Ortman, Rob Jackson, and others think about this schedule.

  2. Peter Brady - April 15, 2016

    I noticed the same thing about the schedule that Peter Taylor is pointing out. For the last three years, the 800 has been on Thursday and the 1500 on Friday and there were no trials for the 800. I haven’t noticed a surge in participation that would necessitate bringing back trials in the 800. If they do eliminate the trials and go straight to a final on Thursday, then people running the 800/1500 double (which is pretty common) will have to be at the meet for 4 days, which is asking a lot. Either way, it makes it difficult to plan travel so the sooner they can make a decision about whether there will be 800 trails, and if not on which day the final will be held, the better.

  3. Myrle Mensey - April 15, 2016

    They have the womens shot and weight on the last day Sunday. Let’s see how they make that work. Would like to see Javelin on last day with weight. Shot and weight usually are the 2 throwing events with the largest participation for females

  4. David E. Ortman (M63), Seattle, WA - April 15, 2016

    Well, since Peter (#1) asked, here is my response: I’ve participated in one National Masters Outdoors Championship meet in the last 17 years. This is partially, but not totally, due to the unwillingness of meet schedulers to disclose the meet schedule prior to the entry deadline.

    I can understand that venues are different. One venue may have two shot put rings and two high jump pits. Other venues may have just one of each. Or perhaps the javelin and discus sites can not be used at the same time at one venue. So last year’s field event schedule may need to be tweaked.

    However, even with a variable number of field event sites, it should be possible to backtrack (pun intended) to a previous meet with the same number of field event sites and use that schedule. There should be no need to wait until the last moment to post a meaningful meet schedule.

    A 400m track remains the same at ALL venues. Therefore, there should be a standard track meet schedule with approximately starting times. Asking athletes to enter events with the only information is that the event will take place sometime during the day is useless for a number of reasons:

    Some of us would really, really like to know if Friday’s 400m will occur at the same time as the High Jump. Or if Saturday’s 200m will occur at the same time as the Long Jump.

    I also see that the schedule demands heats in the 400m/300m Hurdles (if necessary). Usually the only reason it is “necessary” is to whittle a field of nine down to eight. The long hurdle events should run as timed heat finals.

    And, in order to make plane reservations, some of us would really, really like to know when the times of Sunday events. Is the triple jump or javelin a morning event or a late afternoon event? This can mean $100 or more in trying to book a return flight.

    Finally, I will again continue to protest the events that have been shoved into Thursday’s Pentathlon day. My understanding is that the Pentathlon was added to the national Masters Outdoor Championship on the day BEFORE the start of the national meet. This ended the Pentathlon as a stand alone meet held elsewhere and on another date. More and more events, however, have been scheduled for Thursday to the point where the Pentathlon can not be run properly because of these conflicts. I have actually heard of Pentathlon competitors having to interrupt the Pentathlon to go qualify for another event. The Pentathlon is a five event competition, not six events.

    If the National Outdoor Meet requires events on Thursday, they should do the Pentathlon the courtesy of running it in a timely and efficient manner(Rule 200 4(a) provides: “Whenever possible,
    there shall be an interval of at least 30 minutes between the time one event ends and the next event begins for any individual athlete.”) Thirty minutes is a reasonable time between events and keeps things moving. The Pentathlon should have priority for Thursday morning and early afternoon. Open events could then be scheduled at say 4:00 PM. Multi-eventers would at least have the opportunity to participate in a sixth event AFTER the Pentathlon, not during.

    Given the fact we are once again left in the dark concerning the scheduling of events I will likely not return to national masters outdoor championships meets until event scheduling information is providing in a timely fashion.

    And for those lucky and fortunate athletes who attend to participate in only a single event, best of luck.

  5. Peter L. Taylor - April 15, 2016

    Thanks for your thoughtful comments, Peter, Myrle, and David. Peter, your comment (no. 2) got me thinking about the basic question: Why do we have trials in running events? In the throws, we also have “trials,” but when they take place they are in the form of your first three throws, as I recall (and they are allowed to count as your best mark).

    The reason for having trials in the running events must be to provide information to those directing the meet as to which competitors “deserve” to be in the final. I can think of no other reason. I can see the validity of this for open or collegiate competition, but why in masters?

    I looked at the 800 in last year’s outdoors (Jacksonville) and inspected the time differential between 1st and 7th for all the races in which there was a 7th finisher. None of the women’s races had a 7th finisher, but 7 of the men’s races did (M35, M45, M50, M55, M60, M65, and M70).

    If the 7th finisher had a time quite close to the winner’s mark, one might conclude that masters races are tightly packed, and we might need trials when there are large fields. Just how far behind the winner was the 7th finisher at Jacksonville?

    M35 45.92 seconds
    M45 15.24 seconds
    M50 11.08 seconds
    M55 21.23 seconds
    M60 17.85 seconds
    M65 25.34 seconds
    M70 45.92 seconds

    Just imagine how far back the 10th or 11th finishers were (if there were any). My conclusion: As a public service, all 800 trials in Grand Rapids nationals should be eliminated as of today. Fields of 13 or more should be run as split finals.

  6. Rob Jackson - April 18, 2016

    My thoughts exactly Pete. I posted a comment about the men’s 800m (65-69) that would take place on Thursday. If everyone in that event shows up on Thursday run the final right there. It’s highly unlikely that more than 12 guys in that age group will show up for the 800.Look how many guys ran the 800 in Jacksonville last year. I shouldn’t have to sit around until Saturday to run a final when everyone is present and ready to race on Thursday. Can the people in charge take in consideration the money we have to spend to attend these meets and support them.

  7. Rob Jackson - April 18, 2016

    Just got off the phone with usatf also I spoke with Rex Harvey who is charge of the schedule for the Nationals in July.He informed me that he sent info to usatf advising them that the men’s and women’s 800 on Thursday would be a timed final.Usatf has yet to put it up.Ken, Rex needs your phone number so he can call you. I assume you know how to contact him.Rex assured me that there will not be a final on Saturday.

  8. David Bailey - April 18, 2016

    I would prefer to run the 800 final on Saturday. For the 800/1500 runners you have two days idle if run on Thursday. I also like to run prelims because it gives you a tune-up and you might even hit a good time.

  9. JES - April 18, 2016

    As an 800/400 runner, I need 4 races in 3 days like I need another hole in my head. No 800 semi, please.

  10. KPaulk - April 18, 2016

    It’s Championship Racing folks. I’m with Bailey. ‘course it depends on who shows up.

    Since entry deadline is a month before the event why not post an online DECLARATION a few weeks before to give everyone the opportunity to finalize travel plans. If only 12 are registered, or 12 of 18 decalre online the USATF could adjust to one Final 800 race – on Thursday or Saturday.

  11. Rob Jackson - April 20, 2016

    Kevin I’m with Jes. Of course it depends on who shows up whether or not there needs to be semi’s or finals.Here’s the story number one I disagree with Bailey about a tuneup this is not the Olympic games where in the 100 there’s 4 rounds the 800 now has 3.That’s where a person can use the rounds to get faster for the finals, This is masters track. You can’t have the people who officiate these meets out in the heat all day conducting rounds that aren’t needed.The declaration thing has never worked I’ve been in Submasters/masters track since 1980 that’s 36yrs I’ve seen all sorts of rule changes all races are usually run on a timed final.The 2013 Senior nationals in Cleveland saw 40 guys in the 400 and 42 guys in the 800.They ran a 5 heats of 8 in each race with the top 8 to the finals now that was a lot of races.I got the silver/800 and 4th in the 400 I had to run 4 races in 3 days.It’s gonna change according to the amount of entries.

  12. Rob Jackson - April 20, 2016

    No disrespect to Bailey’s comments or Kevin’s.I know Kevin if I’m not mistaken he runs for a philly track club.My point is Bailey is 800/1500 and Jes is 800/400 like myself.I’m passing on the 400 because it’s the same day as the 800 whether the 8 is a final or not unless you’re in some serious shape the 800 will take a lot out of you to come right back with a 400.If I’m not mistaken all these years the basic scheduling has been set up for a person to double in the 100/200, 800/1500, 5000/10000.Somome like me in my 60’s it gets harder and harder to do the 400/800 double the training process is brutal never mind having to tace it at a Championship meet. So fellas you pick your poison and you train diligently and let’s go have some fun and try to bring home a medal or two so all this gut wrenching training,ice baths chiro visits money spent that you really don’t have all for the love of the sport of Track and Field.Dammit I love it it’s in my blood I”ll Never stop Let’s do this!!!!

  13. Peter L. Taylor - April 20, 2016

    Rob, as a minor correction, I believe Kevin resides in the great state of Oregon. You’re probably thinking of Kevin Forde, a resident of Philadelphia.

    Back to the main subject: (1) I did a small survey on this and don’t remember the results, but I will guess that in recent years well over half of the trials in the 800, which have always been scheduled on a Thursday, have not been contested. As the announcer, I would say “The 800 trials for xxx have now rolled to a final on Saturday,” or some such.

    This has huge implications for the runners, and I wrote something about this in National Masters News. So many runners arriving on Wednesday and not running until Saturday (800 finals) and then perhaps coming back on Sunday (1500 finals). Very expensive, to say the least.

    (2) There are implications for the officials, as you note. Grand Rapids is not nearly as hot as North Carolina, but every once in a while it gets a 90+ day (in 2015 it had one day in July and one day in August when it reached 90). Why make officials stand out there for hours just so we can run 800 trials?

    (3) A huge issue, in my opinion, is that in masters there is no requirement that you be able to do the event. If you’re a USATF member and can afford the entry, you’re in. This lets all sorts of people into the event who have no business being there.

    As you recall, Rob, in the 2006 championships in Charlotte (which were bedeviled by heat) we ran trials and finals in the 800. Stan Mathes was a big winner in M60, running 2:15.17 in the final after cruising through his preliminary in 2:22.11.

    A certain other gentleman, aged 60, who lived in Raleigh, decided to take advantage of the North Carolina location by signing up for the meet. This gentleman, unfortunately, was grossly out of shape, although he was a gamer. What a courageous performance he put on, but he could manage only an all-out 5:32.34. Yes, Rob, I said 5:32.34.

    In other words, Stan Mathes and the other finalists had to go through a prelim to show that they could beat this guy and a handful of others. I think that’s wrong.

    Once we have some standards, Rob, which apparently we will never have, I will revisit the idea of trials. Until then, I am firmly against having trials in anything longer than the 200. In the hurdles, there should be no trials at all.

    Why should someone in the M40 group who runs the 110 hurdles in 20 or 21 seconds be able to force a trial if 10 guys show up (off the top I think the AR is 13.72)?

  14. Peter L. Taylor - April 20, 2016

    Daggone it, they changed the M40 AR in the 100 hurdles to 13.73. I could have sworn it was 13.72.

  15. Peter L. Taylor - April 20, 2016

    I meant the 110 hurdles, of course, not the 100 hurdles. Old age has not been kind to me.

    PLT

  16. KPaulk - April 20, 2016

    Love the passionate, experienced, and intelligent commentary here. I too adore toeing the line to race a fellow athlete from here to there. What we need now is someone from GR USATF to make the call – officially – on the schedule so we can book flights. Imagine some have already done so aimed at the Thur 800 Rounds and already have to pay a change fee.
    KP

  17. Rob Jackson - April 20, 2016

    Thanks Pete for the geographic clarification on Kevin I had the 1st name right.The 800 will be run on Thursday as a timed final with the faster seeded athletes in the final heat. I totally agree with Kevin about the change fee but it beats having to pay extra for a car rental and hotel stay.Thursday 800 has been confirmed by Rex Harvey,Also I believe Mr Stone knows about this also as he has been in contact with Rex.The events committee decided that if everyone shows up on Thursday to race hold finals right then and there and be done with it. Pete I remember 2006 Nationals my Club Carolina Track Club hosted the meet. I ran heats and finals in the 55-59 age 800 against Nolan Shaheed took 4th in the finals behind shaheed,Salazarr, and harper.

  18. Mary Harada - April 20, 2016

    so as I read this – 800 on Thursday – and 1500 on Sunday –
    5k is also on Thursday – I think I will just stay home.
    I would have signed up for the 5k on Thursday, had a day of recovery and run the 800 on Saturday (as no heats in my age group for the 800) and the 1500 on Sunday.
    There is no way I am going to come on Wed night – run a race of Thursday (either 800 or 5k – cannot do both in one day)sit around until Sunday for the 1500.
    Glad I have not bothered to make a hotel reservation, a plane reservation nor signed up. If this turns out to be the final schedule – have fun folks – I will put the money not spent on going to Grand Rapids into the bank towards the expenses for Perth. Y’all will be spared the sight of me staggering around the track in slow motion – but I will miss- again – seeing my running friends at the National Masters Outdoor track meet.

  19. KP - April 20, 2016

    Rob… I’m sure we’ve met. I KNOW we’ve raced the 2-lapper at Nats many times. Man those heets in Charlotte 2006 were more like HEATS for sure. Do you recall how we were the Breaking News Story because the Fire Dept shut the meet down? In the M45 Sal Allah, lucky me, & McDuffrie leaning at the tape for 2:00, and Lindsay & Parker 4th & 5th with a 2:02! Brutal But Ballsy.

    OK so if Rex would be so kind to update the Meet Website to clearly state the Thursday 800 is a FINAL that would really help all the 2-lappers to decide travel and what other events to hang around for. Thanks Rex.

  20. Rob Jackson - April 20, 2016

    Now I remember you Kevin The fire dept made everyone go across the street to stay in the west deck parking garage until the heat subsided.USATF events committee has confirmed that the 2 lapper will be a final run on a timed basis. Now the older age groups may not have to run for time if only a hand full of guys show up for example if 7 or 8 people show up in the 60 and over group that’s your final I guess and it’s 1st 2nd 3rd for the medals I could be wrong anyone can correct me who reads this. Oh yeah I think Lindsay is from Arkansas if I’m not mistaken. Looking forward to seeing you at Nationals.I understand Mary’s plight too. She’s staying home and saving her money for Perth. I always thought of competeting against the big boys from other countries did it once at worlds in Buffalo in 1995 45-49 1500 I was living in my home townof New York so the trip was an 90mins away on US airways and I stayed on U Of Buffalo campus dirt cheap got my doors blown off but nevertheless enjoyed the experience eating and socializing with athletes from around the world there is no other feeling of appreciation for our sport then that.I will never go again too rich for my blood can’t afford it.People who went to worlds in Lyon france spent a pretty penny with air,car,hotel food and other expenses with no sponsor it’s tough. Oh yeah in 95 Ralph Romain broke the world record in the 50 or 60 yr old group in the 400 he’s from Trinidad check with the master track historian Pete Taylor for that info. Stay healthy and God Bless

  21. David Bailey - April 21, 2016

    I’m glad you mentioned Keven Forde. He was effected by getting stuck in the slow heat of a two race final in North Carolina. Keven is a great runner but I suspect entries fudged their seed times and bumped him out of a race he belonged in. Keven won the slow heat that year and was I think 3rd overall.

    All seed times should be verifiable on the Masters Rankings site.

    I would rather run the 800 on Saurday and skip the Thursday prelims.

  22. Rob Jackson - April 21, 2016

    David I hope you understand there is no prelim on Thursday if you read my post it’s been verified and comfirmed by two very reliable people Rex Harvey from Ohio and Gary Snyder from Boston both of whom have been involved in the 2013 National Senior games in Ohio (Rex) and the Indoor Nationals in Boston (Gary) and are on the events committee or involved in some capacity.I’ve competed at both venues and know these two men. The 800 is usually run on Thursday if you go back and look at the last few Nationals.

  23. Bill Newsham - April 25, 2016

    If the 800 schedule is going to be different than what’s still posted they need to get it out there pronto. All the claims of phones calls and discussions here in the comments section of a blog don’t count as ‘verified and confirmed’ until the official site has it as such.
    Me standing on the 800 start TH: “Hey, this is supposed to be a final. This was confirmed in the comments on Masterstrack.com”
    USATF offical: Blank stare.

  24. Peter L. Taylor - April 25, 2016

    Thanks for posting this, Bill Newsham. As you know, regular entry for Grand Rapids closes just 7 weeks from this Thursday. Right now the schedule indicates that the 800 trials will be on Thursday, with the finals held on Saturday.

    If I’m a M45 competitor in the 800 working 5 days a week I have to know whether I have to ask for Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday off. Since I’m in M45 I’m looking for a trial, which the schedule “confirms” is Thursday. From reading posts above, however, it looks like there will be no trial but instead just a final on Thursday.

    I would approach a trial and final differently, but the USATF schedule is absolutely clear; any 800s on Thursday will be trials, with the final on Saturday. Nothing other than the posted schedule is official.

  25. Rob Jackson - April 26, 2016

    So who do you contact to get the final info put on the schedule. You’re right 100% Bill. Blank stare from usatf official if the race schedule says trials on Thursday and finals on Saturday.Can the website be physically changed.I”m assuming they do have a web monitor who can go in and correct any problems with the site. And this is becoming a problem. Word of mouth from various people doesn’t seem to be enough.Athletes work schedules,family planning,both travel and personal care is being held up in the air this needs attention right now 7 weeks like Pete mentioned is too close for comfort when it comes to making booking reservations.

  26. Peter L. Taylor - April 27, 2016

    Rob (no. 25) and Bill (no. 23). Nothing happened. The USATF website still shows trials in the 800 (if needed) on Thursday and the finals on Saturday. If you wait until after June 16 (regular entry deadline) to see whether this will be changed you must pay $125.00 for the privilege of entering the 800-1500 combination.

    USATF staff will change the schedule (or not, if nothing happens about the 800). As runners, throwers, and jumpers we do not get involved in changing the schedule.

  27. Ken Stone - April 29, 2016

    Rex Harvey, a member of the Games Committee with final say on the Grand Rapids schedule, tells me:

    “We will be running timed finals on Thursday only in the 800. … There will be no 800 on Saturday.”

    The online sked is mistaken, he assures me.

  28. Bill Newsham - May 2, 2016

    Bottom line, not everyone’s going to see these comments and they should change the schedule to reflect what’s going to happen.

  29. Peter L. Taylor - May 9, 2016

    Rob Jackson (multiple posts), Bill Newsham (posts 23 and 28), and others who are still interested:

    Well, here we are on May 9, and the schedule remains the same for the 800 — trials (if needed) on Thursday and finals on Saturday. Unless you want to pay a huge penalty you’d better get your entry in no later than 5 weeks from this Thursday, and it would help to be certain about the schedule before entering.

    How long can USATF wait to change the schedule to move the 800 finals to Thursday before harming entrants in that event? What’s that, you say, there’s no possibility of harm, as all 800 entrants, per the present schedule, are required to show up for their trial on Thursday, just in case it is actually held?

    The key here is experience. If you’re in W35, for example, and you’ve been to several of our meets, you know there is no way in the world that you will have a trial and that the FINAL schedule will show your final on Saturday (at least per the present schedule).

    Similarly, if you’re in M75 but are a masters “regular,” you know that trials in your age group just will not happen, even though the present schedule suggests that possibility.

    Thus, both W35 and M75 competitors who do not visit this website could enter the 800 with full confidence that their first race in the 800 would be a final, and it would be on Saturday. Schedule your flight for Friday, compete on Saturday in the 800 and on Sunday in the 1500, and then fly back on Monday.

    The problem, of course, is that we were told three weeks ago on this site that the 800 finals would be on Thursday, not Saturday, but nothing changed on the USATF website. At some point before the meet starts on July 14, USATF needs to change the schedule if, in fact, there has been a change. One hopes the change would be made soon.

  30. Leon - May 11, 2016

    Today I got an email promoting Outdoor Championships and even included free access to the party on Saturday. I figured, “Surely the schedule is updated finally.” Nope, still says tentative as of 2 months ago. I guess they don’t realize how vital it is for the schedule to be final before some athletes register.

  31. Daphne Sluys - May 28, 2016

    Just checked and the 800m is still officially scheduled as trials on thurs and final on sat.??For athletes this matters a lot!!

  32. Daphne Sluys - May 28, 2016

    I left messages for Gary Snyder and Jeff Brower regarding the updating of the website info for the 800m finals. I know folks are busy but this is an important detail for athletes that will affect participation in this and other events.

  33. Peter L. Taylor - May 30, 2016

    Thanks for posting, Daphne. The big meet in Grand Rapids starts just 6 weeks from Thursday, and I hope that you and perhaps 1200 others will be ready. I worry, however, about newcomers who are going by the published schedule, especially middle-distance runners and intermediate hurdlers.

    As you know, the 800 finals are listed for Saturday, as are the trials in the intermediate hurdles. Finals in the intermediate hurdles are scheduled for Sunday. If you’re tall and athletic you just might want to try the 800-400h double.

    What a shock it will be to find at some point between today (May 30) and the big meet in Michigan that the 800 finals will actually be on Thursday (as reported on this site) and that there is no way, if you’re a woman under 50, that there will be trials for you in the 400 hurdles (at present there is just 1 woman entered in the 400 hurdles).

    Thus, for a competitor in W35, for example, who was perhaps a star in college but has not competed in masters nationals before, what even today looks like 800 trials on Thursday, 800 finals on Saturday, 400 hurdles trials on Saturday, and 400 hurdles finals on Sunday will become just two races: 800 finals on Thursday, 2 days off, and then 400 hurdles finals on Sunday.

    It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

  34. Mary Harada - May 30, 2016

    I gave up on the National Masters Outdoor meet after seeing the first schedule with the 5k followed by the 800 finals on Thursday and the 1500 on Sunday giving me two days with nothing to do as well as the inability to run both the 5k and 800 on the same day. Now i see that the 800 finals are on Saturday – which makes more sense – but this came too late for me. This is the way the schedule should have been from the start. And I believe it has been that way in the past.
    Too late for me to come now as i have family now visiting having told them a month ago I would be home and not at the meet.
    People have lives and obligations, plans need to be made in advance and at this point I will not ask family members to change their plane reservations because the schedule was finally changed. This problem for middle distance runners was known months ago – and nothing happened so I assumed that nothing would be changed. Those who make the schedules need to give a bit of thought to how scheduling impacts the athletes and not just push events around like pieces on a checker board. Apparently this is to ask to much of those who make out schedules but do not actually compete in these events.

  35. Peter L. Taylor - June 3, 2016

    Speaking of the 800, it is still listed on the official schedule as having a Saturday final (after trials on Thursday if necessary). At this point we should not be changing the day of any particular event, as we are nearing the end of entry without penalty.

    From everything I have read in earlier posts, however, the finals in the 800 will be on THURSDAY. This has huge implications for real runners. For example, the great Sabra Harvey of Houston (W65) entered the 800, 1500, and 5000 at some point in May (I don’t know when).

    Sabra set the American record in the 800 for W60 while running in our Oshkosh championships (2009) and for W65 while running at Winston-Salem nationals. Thus, she is familiar with our nationals and knew when she entered that there is no way in the world that W65 would have a trial in the 800.

    I wish I had Sabra’s phone number, as her 5000 will be on Thursday, her 1500 on Sunday, and her 800 (per the schedule) on Saturday but per this blog on Thursday. Thus, if what we have heard is correct, here is what Sabra will have to run:

    Thursday: final in the 5000
    Thursday: final in the 800
    Friday and Saturday: off
    Sunday: final in the 1500

    What a huge difference between Sabra’s assignment as originally visualized and her new assignment, which features the very tough 5000-800 double. Is there no way to correct things? Or, if it is now considered too late to move a race from Saturday to Thursday, is there any way to declare that the rumored change is just a rumor?

  36. Ken Stone - June 3, 2016

    I’ve sent Sabra a note, with link to your concerns, Pete.

  37. Mary Harada - June 4, 2016

    The more things change the more they stay the same -I hope for Sabra’s sake the 800 will be on Saturday -a double for her on Thursday will indeed be very tough. As I have written before I will not do it -at my age (will be 81 by then ) I would be reduced to walking the 800.
    I realize that those who set up these schedules probably do not think about such things as can middle distance runners perform well under these circumstances. Or perhaps they are under the illusion that some of us show up just to run one event. Even elite athletes do not attempt a 5k -800 double back to back.
    As for clarifying the schedule before one turns up at the meet – what a concept ….really – get real folks -it costs money to come to these meets.

  38. Peter L. Taylor - June 4, 2016

    Thanks for that, Ken (no. 36), and thanks for your contribution, Mary (no. 37).

    At 10:08 this morning (Saturday) I went to the meet home page on the USATF website and found that the schedule was still the same, with the 800 finals on Saturday. I also found that 47 people have entered the 800, with 46 of them presumably thinking that their 800 final would be on Saturday. Without question, they made their decisions about (a) what other events to enter, and (b) what events not to enter, based on a Saturday final for the 800.

    Thanks to you, Ken, Sabra will now know that she’s in for a very tough 5000-800 double on Thursday, at least if the rumored change in the 800 is actually carried out.

    I also found out something very interesting, Ken and Mary, in terms of the running events, and I quote:

    “Track events will range from 60 meters to 3,000 meters.” That certainly sounds like an indoor meet; I thought this was an outdoor meet. Oh, well. I think that Grand Valley State has a pretty good indoor facility, and so that won’t be too bad.
    In truth, I’d rather announce indoors.

  39. Jeff Mann - June 8, 2016

    Well here we are a week out as of tomorrow, and no change to the schedule. I’m finally coming back after dealing with four years of injury and planned to run Nats no matter what condition I’m in. But this is discouraging. If I have to come on Wednesday for a Thursday 800 race, I’d rather it be a prelim and final on Saturday, followed by 1500 on Sunday. Like Mary, I don’t want to sit around for two days with nothing to do.

    Why is it that Canadian Masters Championships can already have a daily schedule posted, with estimated start times, but USATF can’t? Looks like I may be headed to Toronto instead, racing an 800 on Saturday and 1500 on Sunday. Plus, it’s Toronto, not Grand Rapids (sorry, Michigan fans, but no comparison). Plus it gives me another month to prepare. And, oh yeah, their entry deadline is just a couple days prior to first day of competition, not a month out.

    http://ontariomasters.ca/competitions/canadian-masters-championships/

  40. Peter L. Taylor - June 9, 2016

    Thanks for posting that, Jeff. I do remember you; you’re a very good runner, with excellent style. As far as the 800 in Grand Rapids, we now have 65 entrants. My prediction is that we will end up with 190, well above last year’s 160 in Jacksonville.

    This is all somewhat predictable, of course, as Grand Rapids will have larger attendance overall and is not as hot as Jacksonville. Regardless, if we’re not going to run trials in the 800 we owe it to prospective entrants to tell them that, given the great difference between the listed schedule (on which they based their competition plans, hotel and flight, and work schedule) and what we think the final schedule will look like.

    We already have 8 in M65 and 7 in M55, and thus it looks like those two groups will have trials, but there will be no trials in the 800 from what we have been told on this website.

    Of those 15 men, how many have received a communication from USATF that under no circumstances will there be trials in the 800 and that their final at nationals will be on Thursday, not on Saturday as posted on the official schedule at 7:00 AM Eastern on June 9? My best guess is 0, as in zero. Can’t we do better than that?

  41. Mary Harada - June 9, 2016

    Ah the Canadian Masters Championship in Toronto – that sounds like a better deal for me. The dates are better (family will have all left for home) and Toronto is a quick flight on Porter Air. Have to give strong consideration to that. Thanks for the suggestion Jeff.

  42. Peter L. Taylor - June 10, 2016

    Well, it’s now 8:35 PM Eastern on Friday, June 10, and we definitely have a new schedule for Grand Rapids, although it’s still marked as “tentative.”

    The 800 finals for men have been moved from Saturday, where they were listed for 3 months, to Thursday. This may upset a few men who decided to enter both the 5000 and the 800. As things stand now, Ruben Henderson (M50), Ron Pate (M65), Ken Ogden (M80), and Donald Pratt will be faced with a quick turnaround.

    These gentlemen, and others, will run the 5000 on Thursday and then, without a great deal of rest, come back the same day to run the 800 final. Had the 800 finals been kept on Saturday this double would not have been nearly so difficult.

    What about the women? Well, their finals in the 800, originally scheduled for Saturday, have been wiped out. There are now no 800 finals for women. If needed, they will have trials in that event on Thursday, but they will not have a final, at least per our latest schedule.

  43. Ken Stone - June 10, 2016

    Sked is here:
    http://www.usatf.org/Events—Calendar/2016/USATF-Masters-Outdoor-Championships/Schedule.aspx

Leave a Reply