Americans officially have WR in 4×8 — but not American record
Like God, USA Track & Field acts in mysterious ways. But God isn’t stupid. USATF is. At least when it comes to masters age-group records. The latest howler is the listed M35 record for the 4×800 relay. According to this USATF record page, the pending American record for the 4×8 is an April 16 mark from Mt. SAC of 8:12.33. But as y’all know, the best M35 4×8 is 7:55.67 by a quartet running April 3 at the College of William & Mary. (See our interview.) World Masters Athletics agrees. See the outdoor records page. What’s the deal? Here’s my best wild-ass guess: Sandy Pashkin, who serves as both USATF and WMA records chief, lacks crucial information for recognizing the 7:55.67 mark as an American record. So she won’t list it. But apparently WMA rules are squishier. So 7:55.67 is the mark shown on the WMA records page.
Top chart shows WMA world records in 4x8. Bottom shows AR as of today.
This raises some uncomfortable questions:
1. If WMA rules are too soft, what’s wrong with WMA?
2. If USATF rules are too strict, what’s wrong with USATF?
3. If USATF and WMA rules are perfectly in sync, what’s wrong with Sandy?
What’s the solution to this embarrassing disconnect?
God knows.
16 Responses
A very quick look at the “last updated” notation tells the tale. The WMA website was last updated in May (after the April record run) whereas the USATF site hasn’t been updated since February (before the run). So the real question is, who does the updating on the USATF site and why are they behind? Sandy does the records work, but she can’t go in and update the site herself I’m quite certain.
Jerry, I think that Ken is probably correct here (or close to it, at least). A search of less than a minute revealed that the USATF site has been updated as recently as May of this year (at least in part). I found the following pending marks:
M60 800: 2:10.78 for Nolan Shaheed (April 16).
M60 1500: 4:31.93 for Nolan Shaheed (May 1).
M50-59 4 x 400: 3:40.62 Houston Elite (April 23).
Thus, while the USATF site continues to say “Last updated 2/23/2010” the records continue to be updated. Someone needs to change the “sign.”
More disturbing to me is the failure to ratify records that were set at indoor nationals. I first noticed this last year when Charlie Kern (M35 at the time) ran 4:18.89 (1 mile) and 8:37.94 (3000) at Landover and did not credit for either mark. It’s now June 30, 2010, and he still hasn’t gotten credit.
Of course, one could say (correctly) that Bernard Lagat has vastly superior marks, that Steve Scott had a better mark in the mile, etc., but they weren’t ratified either and Charlie had marks that were much better than those still listed.
Among the notable marks from this year’s nationals (Boston) that are not shown on the updated world indoor list are the following:
4 x 800 mark (W40-49) set by an ad hoc team of Lisa Valle, Terry Ballou, Christine Olen, and Aeron Arlin-Genet. The squad ran 9:25.49 to crush the existing mark by 30 seconds but did not make the new world list (reportedly updated May 20, but actually the update first appeared May 31 or June 1).
4 x 800 mark (W50-59) by an ad hoc team of Julie Hayden, Cheryl Bellaire, Kathy Martin, and Coreen Steinbach. This foursome ran 10:43.50 to soundly break the old record but did not make the new list.
4 x 400 mark of 3:25.04 by Robert Thomas, Marek Wensel, Khalid Mulazim, and Ed Winslow (Southwest Sprinters). This broke the world indoor mark of 3:30.83 (team anchored by Paul Brown) and all American marks (national team plus club) but did not get listed anywhere. At the Southeastern Masters meet in June I joked with Paul Brown that his team still had the record, and it does. But why?
If world or American records set at nationals are not actually records, shouldn’t someone go into the results pages for the nationals and change those results? It’s very odd to see that they don’t match the record lists. But I have no doubt that they were indeed records, in which case I think the records should be changed.
And, of course, the fact that the pending mark of 8:12.33 shown here by Ken is from April 16, 2010, is just one more indication that the USATF records are updated more or less continuously (I missed this example).
It is said that consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Don’t know why this expression comes to mind this morning – maybe it has to do with the topic of record keeping and all the angst that goes with that.
So – while I am scribing away here – avoiding doing the laundry – here is my latest “record” complaint.
NMN listed my club’s WR for the indoor 4 x 400 for women 70-79 – not as a club record but as an “ad hoc” record and for women 80-89.
Well let me tell you that the 4 of us are NOT happy with being listed as THAT old! Sheeze – gah – arghhhhh
Actually Emerson said a “a FOOLISH consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines”.
but there I go being foolishly consistant…
While attending the Southeastern Masters Meet in NC a couple of weeks ago, Peter Taylor and I had a conversation about this topic. Within that conversation he brought up the indoor 4×800 record set by the W40 quartet of Valle, Ballou, Olen, and Arlin-Genet as an example. I recalled seeing that record setting race and also wondered why it was not listed. I contacted Christine Olen and asked if she knew why it was not accepted. She responded that it had something to do with verification of birthdates although she and all of her teammates have “DOB verified” on the USATF membership profile and USATF card.
I contacted Sandy Pashkin and spoke with her on the phone. We had a very pleasant conversation and I learned something about her record verification process that I had not realized before. She requires a copy of a birth certificate or passport FOR HER FILES regardless of whether we have verified our DOB with USATF. Once she has that copy in her files, she no longer needs that verification for subsequent records. She told me that as soon as Chritine Olen and Aeron send her the information, she will be able to certify the relay record. I told Christine of this and I am hopeful that this is now going to be resolved.
But, this is an important thing for all of us to know. Because I had to send DOB proof back in 2005 when I was a part of the M50 4×800 world record relay, I have not needed to do that again for any new records. And that would be true for others as well. Sandy keeps her files seperate from USATF and this is a requirement that she has in place. I am sure that many others (like me) have thought that as long as our DOB was verified as a part of USATF membership, then we would be fine, but that is not the case.
Thanks, Steve, for that input. Of course, no reasonable person who had provided proof of age to (1) enter the Boston meet in 2010, (2) pick up her packet at Boston 2010, and (3) enter earlier national or world championships would automatically assume that she had to provide proof of age still another time if she set a record. In the euphoria of a record I don’t think that would come to mind.
If, at Boston, I had set a record (impossible to believe, of course), I would have been stunned to learn that I had to provide proof of age still again to get my rightful record. How did I get in the meet if I was not the right age? Is providing personal proof to the records chair in the rules somewhere? I really doubt it.
I understand more thoroughly now that this is Sandy’s requirement, but should this not have been widely publicized (perhaps twice a year, every year, in a conspicuous place)? Moreover, would it not have been more appropriate to post the mark as a world record and then ask for proof of age for the future?
Finally, does this requirement carry the full blessing of USATF Masters T&F? It’s so hard to set a record and then get it ratified; do we really need additional barriers? Let us always remember the many, many masters athletes who have been denied their legitimate records over the years; we should never forget them.
It says on the form for AR and WR – that proof of age is needed – birth certificate or passport. I do not think this is a barrier. Find a photocopier and make a copy – put it in your track bag along with the record form. Only at national meets are the officials kind enough to do the work to fill out the forms.(and some regional meets that are really well run – such as the Hayward Classic and NE Masters meets) If any one who sets a record talks to Sandy Pashkin about the protocol for making sure the record is properly recorded she will tell you that she needs the birth certificate or copy of passport. Any one hoping to set an AR – for example – or a WR – should download the form – do folks really think that some magic hand does this for them?
Any meet other than a national meet someone hoping to set a record should turn up with the form. Meet directors do not necessarily have them handy. Read the form – it is pretty clear. It also says that a drug test is reguired but this is waived (so far) for setting masters records. Should drug testing at nationals come into being I will be interested in seeing if this is enforced at non-national but sanctioned meets. This may mean the end of setting records for masters except at national or international meets where drug testing is done.
I mention this because when I was checking with a local meet director running a sanctioned track meet where I was hoping to set an AR/WR in the mile – he told me he could do everything except for the drug testing. Fortunately that is not a requirement for masters.
Any relay team hoping to set a record should come prepared with all the information needed for the form – including copies of passports. And you should follow up with the meet director to make sure that all the paper work is properly filled. Those setting records should assume the responsibility for this and not just hope that it happens.
I have to offer a little different perspective on this, Mary. On page 16 of the June National Masters News our Master Chair, Gary Snyder, says the following:
“If the record is set at a USA Masters Indoor or Outdoor Championship a member of the Masters T&F Games Committee is assigned the task of ensuring everything necessary to submit the forms for certification is completed. Essentially there is nothing for the athlete to do except bask in the glow.”
I interpret this quite literally to mean that the record-setting athlete need do NOTHING after she has set a record at nationals (all she has to do is “bask in the glow”). And, as noted in an earlier post, she has already provided proof of age twice (once to enter the meet, a second time to pick up her packet). She has done what is required.
How many times does she have to do this? Can’t masters T&F obtain a copy of what has been presented at the meet (or before the meet)? For example, can’t masters T&F make a copy of the proof of age presented at the meet (presumably still with the athlete) and use that for record purposes?
As for the form, yes, it says that proof of age is needed. And proof of age has indeed been provided twice (by the athlete). Doesn’t that suffice? To hold a record hostage because an athlete who has provided proof of age two times for one meet (and provided it multiple times in earlier years — I am referring here to Christine Olen) has not yet provided proof a third time for the same meet strikes me as unfair.
maybe if we ALL send Sandy Pashkin proof of age, whether we feel national class or not (certainly I’m not), she’d set up a nice little filing cabinet filled with thousands of masters athletes DOB info, and then we could bypass the “meet entry” requirement for entry and picking up the packet, and just tell the officials, “oh, Sandy’s got me in a filing cabinet in her basement”.
Sounds like Sandy is either profoundly ignorant;or profoundly arrogant.
What?! The proof of age that we have presented is good enough for our national governing body but not for a representative of that body? And why should I give Sandy Pashkin a copy of a confidential document? For her files?? How I do know if she is keeping this information private and secure? Who has access to these files? Her housekeeper? Her family? The Roto Rooter Man?? In this day and age of identity theft this is a very valid question.
I have never heard of such pure unadulterated crap.
What planet is Sandy Pashkin on? Enough of this!
Tonight I sent Sandy Pashkin the link to this blog entry. I wrote her: “I would love to share your thoughts on the situation.”
Don’t hold your breath on a reply.
Truth is, Sandy is on extremely thin ice now. She serves at the pleasure of USATF Masters T&F Chairman Gary Snyder. He can replace her at any time.
Momentum is building. I’m not the only one calling attention to her questionable records ratification and posting process.
The latest voice — and an important one — is Randy Sturgeon, editor and publisher of National Masters News, a quasi-official publication of USATF (since it gets a $5,000 yearly grant from the Masters T&F Committee).
On page 4 of the July 2010 edition, Randy notes the case of Flo Meiler’s rejected pole vault records:
“I know there has to be rules and standards for a record to be accepted, but there has to be some common sense so athletes do not lose recognition they not only deserve but they have rightfully earned.”
Bravo, Randy!
But don’t stop there.
Call for accountability. Call for change. You have more clout than you think.
I’m sorry, Mary, if I was a little harsh or judgmental above. One of my principal points was that we are talking about indoor nationals, a meet like no other. Here we are the guests, if you will, and we should expect that any extraordinary achievements (records) will be duly recognized. This is consistent with both history and policy for masters T&F.
Let’s look at the record form for masters track events. Item no. 2 refers to the starter’s certificate, and it is perfectly reasonable for an athlete who sets a record at nationals to expect that she does not have to seek out the starter. And she would be correct. In contrast, at a small meet in Doylestown, Pennsylvania, for example, she would have to take care of this herself or beg the meet director to do it.
At the bottom of the form there is a clear requirement for a copy of the photo finish, and the athlete in question who has set a record at nationals might worry: “How will I get a copy of that photo?” She might conclude that someone else will take care of this for her (and she would be correct). At the hypothetical meet in Doylestown she would have to take care of this herself (or beg someone to do it).
On seeing the requirement for a copy of the birth certificate or passport at the top of the form, the athlete at nationals might reasonably conclude that (1) the presence of her date of birth (DOB) in the USATF database, (2) her ownership of a USATF card that says her DOB was confirmed, (3) the fact that she presented proof of age through the entry process for nationals and was granted “accepted” status, and (4) the fact that she presented proof of age in picking up her packet would all combine to relieve her of responsibility to present proof of age (through the mail, apparently) once again.
Under what appears to be our system, she would not be correct, but my point is that it would be rational for her to assume that all this earlier evidence of proof of age would suffice.
Identity theft. I, like “Excuse me??” above, had thought about identity theft but did not mention it. These are personal documents; I worry from time to time that someone will use personal information about me to get a credit card, run up 5-10,000 dollars in purchases on the first day, then disappear into the night. Yes, I wouldn’t be responsible for most of the charges, but it would be upsetting. Thus, I would try to limit the times that I gave away a copy of my birth certificate or passport.
Does anyone hav contact information (phone or email) for Ms Pashkin? I am the one that filled out and sent the information fo this record so I’d like to find out what was missing.
The reason the 8:12.33 4 x 800 relay mark is a pending American record is because all 4 members were on the same registered club team–A Club American record which would replace the old Fibo record. The record with Jason and the other three guys was an adhoc team–so it does not qualify for a club record-that should clarify things for you Ken–Mark
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