masterstrack.com

Thanks BLL

But i've tried that too!!!! with no luck. Perhaps I just don't have the right genes and I have to accept that.

We're in mid winter training at the moment so I got a bit of time to ponder.
Good luck to all athletes in the US with your upcoming Nationals. Run/throw/jump well and have fun.

I don't race the 400, I am a middle distance runner, but if I did run the 400 meters, I would do two speed workouts a week.
The first would be for speed endurance, and the second would be for speed.

For speed endurance, I would run things like ladders:
200 - 300 - 400 - 500 - 600 - 500 - 400 - 300 - 200 (with a walk rest)
I would run this type of workout with negative splits, that as you drop down in distance you increase the speed, so that your last 200 would be all out.

For the speed day, I would run repeat 150's or 200's The 150's could be the first 50 meters at 80 - 90% effort, and the last 100 meters 100% I would do 4 - 8 repeats of these.

I would run easy on the other days, perhaps 3 - 4 miles. I would take 1 to 2 days totally off each week as rest.


So my typical week would look like:

mon - tue - wed - thur - fri - sat - sun


3 mi - speed endurance - off - 3 mi - speed - 4 mi - off

Hope this helps.

Many thanks for your reply R&S
This workout looks like a lot of fun!!!!!!! (Not) but then I guess you have to do the work to get the results...

Good luck with your season

The ladder and the speed certainly make a lot of sense, but I have to ask about the "rest days." That has been a question of mine for a long time and I think as I get older it becomes more critical, particularly as I am forced to maximize training efficiency for one reason or another. Just how much mileage does a 400 meter runner (hurdler) need/want? One would think that the easy run is a benefit and all that but historically I have felt worse the day after a "recovery run" then I did before it. Plus is that amount of long slow running going to adversely affect the real goal which is top end speed? I think the transition from 400 to 800 is a huge one in that guys like Nick Symmonds routinely go for long runs of well over 4 miles, probably well over 10 miles, but I can tell you I wouldn't want to meet him on the track with a 400 at stake. I would love to meet Nick and talk track in a cafe but I digress! My point is they (half-milers) seem to include significant mileage in their training and still have "get-down speed" to quote a favorite book. The opposite side of that coin is I would be surprised if Wallace Spearmon has run more than 4 miles in his training program ever (not disparaging his work ethic by any means!) but Wallace can drop a mean 400 as well. So is it a matter of preference or more a function of muscle fiber composition? It seems just a continuation of the "long or short" 400 discussion but in my mind there is a subtlety to it. I'm talking the rest days, the days that are not designed to make gains but bridge the gaps between those days that are. Perhaps if done correctly these days can result in gains. Thoughts from the training experts?
HN
Eddie

Provocative!
Since I'm definiteley no expert, I'll refrain from commenting. I will say, however, that as Nick and Matt Scherer were training for the Trials it was fun watching them crank out 49 to 50 sec 400s over and over.

As I get older, I need more and more rest days. When I am building my base and getting ready to race, I will take less rest days than I do during my 'race season'. Though I train for the 800 - 1500, I will still want the speed of the 400.
When I am building I will put two speed workouts in during the week, but when I am racing, I will do one speed workout, then race as my second speed workout for the week.

When I wrote only do 3 - 4 miles during your runs, I guess I was 'stereotyping' sprinters whom I am seen shy away from distance.

I personally go one long run of 6 - 8 miles, with two more runs of 6 miles.

Now that I am racing, I will put in one 6 mile run and one 4 - 5 mile run, one speed work out and then my race. The rest of the week is 'no running'.

One thing you can do when you run your longer slower runs, is if you live near a track, on your way back from the run, get on the track and run a 400 very fast. I have seen in training books, to run 4 - 6 200 meter repeats after your longer runs during your racing season. Plus do those 200 meter repeats after your race, but the track is usually being raced on, so you might do some strides on the back stretch or something inconspicuous.


For a 400 meter runner, I would say you might want to run one long run a week of up to six miles, but it also helps to not count miles on your run, but run for a certain amount of time, let say do a 30 minute run, or a 45 minute run or an hour run, this way, you can run an out and back route, and just go out for half the time and turn around.

I think for any distance you need the speed of the distance below your own, plus the endurance for the distance above your distance.
So for a 400 meter runner, you would need 200 meter speed, and 800 meter endurance.

Are you sure you have tried EVERYTHING?? From reading your reply here you obviously enjoy having a good 100/200 and don't want to lose
your speed. Are you doing pure speed work?? In your situation i would
be doing 1 or 2 sessions a week of 20-60m at 95% with full recovery
making sure to concentrate on good form. Increasing your top end
speed will give you more speed reserve when you run 400m.
I believe this would be the same for KimW also. I am also a believer
that you cant get faster by training slow.

Thanks for this SB. I think you are totally correct. This is the type of training I have been currently engaged in. (Until a dodgy hip flexor has clipped my wings for the past couple of months).

But, for me it's almost as if I need to do the longer stuff 'for my head' rather than for my legs!!!!!

I can't seem to get my head around the fact that I can make that horrendous last 100m off just 20m-60m.

Like all injured runners I'm going mental trying to handle not being able to do full sessions. When I am able I'll sure be putting your advice to good use.

Many thanks

zorn - i know exactly what you mean! I have struggled with the same
feeling of not being able to fully run out the 400. Its funny though because
when i have concentrated mainly on short sprint drills and accelerations,
my 400 times have been quicker. They do feel harder though and that is
where the confusion comes in. You think you can't run a strong quarter BUT
when you pick yourself up of the floor after the race and check the times -
it's quicker. I have found that when i do lots of interval training and related
endurance stuff, the races seem easier BUT they have been slower. I guess
you just can't have it all.

SB:)

Barry:
I've read the ongoing posts concerning 400m training and would like to know your thoughts concerning how to adapt your training to a Masters Decathlete. I see a great deal of merit with your method for an athlete who concentrates the majority of their time on speed/power/and technique with the need for quick recovery for the next day's activities. I'm in my second year of Masters involvement and have a long way to go with my training due to setbacks caused by an ACL injury back in 1980. I've acquired an anti-rotational brace to allow me to handle events where torque is involved, (hurdles, javelin, and high jump), and I expect to be able to train progressively this year. I was a 7' 2" high jumper back in the day and was never very fast, (24 second repeat 200's for stride work and strength back then). In my maiden decathlon this year at 51 years of age, I ran 13.51 and 1:03.37 with sporadic training in the months leading up to the meet. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.

HJGONEDEC

Good Lord! What a ridiculous thread. Rice University writes a study thirty years after the training method is originally used, and they deserve credit for this great training "innovation"?

Charlie Francis' group was been using the speed reserve approach in the 1970's! Get a grip.

Yes, short to long training works, but it's not appropriate for every person.

Those with a weaker central nervous system often fare poorly on a short to long program, but thrive using long to short. There is no singular training application that fits every athlete.