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Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:39 am

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I am curious to see how Masters Atlhletes train for the 400m. I guess it depends on wheter the athlete runs 200/400 or 400/800.



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Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:28 pm

 
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Indeed, it depends. Our sprint coach at Kajaks (John Biglow) is a big advocate of the "short to long" program for anything up to 400m, and for the last year or so I have been trying to do it his way (although I run into a lifetime habit of sneering at "lazy sprinters") because I was after the Canadian M60-64 100m Hurdle record. Also the "short to long" philosophy of "Never practice running slow!" made a lot of sense to me. (That first competitive 400 every Spring is always a rude awakening and an extremely painful reality check, as I re-discover that sprint endurance is a whole 'nother thing!) However, the result was that I ran the 100m a half second slower this year than last year, and felt "out of shape" the whole season. So my advice is, take change in small doses. If you've spent 45 years doing "long to short", then, if nothing else, you're going to feel weird doing it differently, and that will affect your confidence and elan. This year I'm going to do it "my way" but keep as many as possible of the new tricks I've learned from "short to long". One lesson is that my knees and tendons can't handle more than one maximum-intensity sprint workout per week, if that; so I'll do fewer starts, accels and top-speed drills this year, but make each one count by honing my "focus" sharper. Doing too many starts, for example, just teaches your body how to fake it. Most important general rule: Listen to your body! It knows best.

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Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:12 am

 

Long to short is really effective especially for longverity in completing at 400m. Aerobic capacity to anaerobic capacity is always a good transition and lacatic acid based training cycles are also eccential to 400m training. It hurts but it pays off in the long run. You will be able to tolerate lactic acid build up during the 400 and run more effectivetly especially for us masters runners who are stronger than we are faster. My two cents.



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Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:09 pm

 
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I am always amazed by Bud Winters training both Lee Evans and Tommie Smith. Both 44 point 400m sprinters. Evans would do 6 x 600m with the last 200m in 25 sec, while Smith did a 2 x 330yd (full recovery) in 31+ seconds.

2 different athletes, same results on the track.



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Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:12 pm

 
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I am told that the transition from anaerobic to (painful, desperate) aerobic metabolism takes place 40 sec after the beginning of maximum effort, independent of age or conditioning. This seems vaguely implausible, but if it's true, it explains why those elite quarter-milers come across the finish line smiling and flashing V-signs. After 44 seconds, I'm not in agony either! But I'm still a long, long way from the finish line. :cry:

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Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:51 pm


hello


Last edited by abarr on Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:52 am

 
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Yes, well, that's pretty much the basic "short to long" philosophy. It didn't work for me, but it clearly does for a lot of people. I'd like to suggest a couple of revisions, however. First, get your Physics right: momentum is (at nonrelativistic speeds) the product of your mass (a scalar) times your velocity (a vector). Since your mass is unlikely to change much as you accelerate, the magnitude of your (vector) momentum is simply proportional to your speed; they are (except for the constant of proportionality, your mass) the same thing. Second, surely you didn't really mean 100% for the first 50m. At no point in a 400 should you be putting out 100%, since we are extremely inefficient at 100% -- otherwise an all-out 100m wouldn't be so tiring! Moreover, you actually run faster at "95%" than at "100%" because you are more relaxed; I know there is an irreducible subjective aspect to this "percent" stuff, but I think we've all used this terminology (and had it used on us by our coaches) and so I hope everyone knows what I mean. When you try to put out "100%" you are fighting the natural limits on frequency and range of motion imposed by your body's mechanical properties and the signal speeds in your nervous system; this is what makes it so inefficient compared with, say, "90%". Of course, it is a good idea to occasionally (when you are feeling very, very loose and warmed up, and are not yet very tired) crank it up to "99%" and push those limits, because only thus can you stretch them to a higher speed. But beware: that's when injury is most likely! At the start of a 400, if you are "straining" to go as fast as possible, you are blowing away too much of your energy store. You must stay relaxed!

In the end, there are only two rules you need to follow to run your best 400: (1) Get out fast. (2) Don't slow down. :wink:

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Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:00 am

 

Simply for discussion purposes, I disagree about an all out first 50m. If one were to run an all out first fifty meters in a 400m race that momentum would never carry them the remaining 350m. In the 400m the competitor needs to run at a fast comfortable pace as to try to be able to manage fatigue in the last 50-60 meters. 400m runners sprint 60m to develop speed, so they run faster and more relaxed. If you can develop superior speed you can run faster and relaxed. Most importantly be in the race and finish strong.


Last edited by Boricuavallista400 on Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:08 am

 
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Boricuavallista400 wrote:
Simply for discussion purposes, I disagree about an all out first 50m. If one were to run an all out first fifty meters in a 400m race that momentum would never carry them the remaining 350m. In the 400m the competitor needs to run at a fast comfortable pace as to try to be able to manage fatigue in the last 50-60 meters. 400m runners sprint 60m to develop speed, so they run faster and more relaxed. If you can develop superior speed you can run faster and relaxed.

I agree with Tony, running the first 50-60m all out in the 400m is a setup for failure.



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Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:18 am

 

Hey Kettrell,
How you doing? Thanks for the back up! Your a class act and a great competitor.



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Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:45 pm

 
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Hey, Coach K!

If I don't go full-blast for the first 50 meters, y'all are GONE. :wink:

Anyway, I look forward to seeing U at the San Diego-Imperial Association meeting this coming Wednesday. I need guidance on which local hills to run.

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Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:09 pm

 
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Boricuavallista400 wrote:
Hey Kettrell,
How you doing? Thanks for the back up! Your a class act and a great competitor.

Junior
I'm doing great. Getting back in shape slowly. I hope all is well with you and yours. Take care and stay healthy.



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Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:10 pm

 
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Ken Stone wrote:
Hey, Coach K!

If I don't go full-blast for the first 50 meters, y'all are GONE. :wink:

Anyway, I look forward to seeing U at the San Diego-Imperial Association meeting this coming Wednesday. I need guidance on which local hills to run.

See you wednesday for the fireworks



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Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:21 pm

 
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Boricuavallista400 wrote:
Long to short is really effective especially for longverity in completing at 400m. Aerobic capacity to anaerobic capacity is always a good transition and lacatic acid based training cycles are also eccential to 400m training. It hurts but it pays off in the long run. You will be able to tolerate lactic acid build up during the 400 and run more effectivetly especially for us masters runners who are stronger than we are faster. My two cents.


Not so.

The short dictates the long all the way up to 800m.
The faster you can run short, the faster you will run long.
400m is still an oxygen deficit event, even at the masters level. It's simply not necessary to run even the actual distance let alone longer distances than 400m.

Research has shown that blocking 60% of oxygen intake has no effect at all for up to 60 seconds of running, and very little up to 120 seconds of running, so training aerobically not only makes no sense for that reason, it makes no sense as to fiber and motor unit recruitment either.

Lactic tolerance can be effectively trained by shortening recovery time between shorter distance repeats. Running purposeful, shorter distance repeats in training is much less wearing on the system than longer, useless repeats.

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Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:07 am

 
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thefattys wrote:
Boricuavallista400 wrote:
Long to short is really effective especially for longverity in completing at 400m. Aerobic capacity to anaerobic capacity is always a good transition and lacatic acid based training cycles are also eccential to 400m training. It hurts but it pays off in the long run. You will be able to tolerate lactic acid build up during the 400 and run more effectivetly especially for us masters runners who are stronger than we are faster. My two cents.


Not so.

The short dictates the long all the way up to 800m.
The faster you can run short, the faster you will run long.
400m is still an oxygen deficit event, even at the masters level. It's simply not necessary to run even the actual distance let alone longer distances than 400m.

Research has shown that blocking 60% of oxygen intake has no effect at all for up to 60 seconds of running, and very little up to 120 seconds of running, so training aerobically not only makes no sense for that reason, it makes no sense as to fiber and motor unit recruitment either.

Lactic tolerance can be effectively trained by shortening recovery time between shorter distance repeats. Running purposeful, shorter distance repeats in training is much less wearing on the system than longer, useless repeats.


Barry,
Are you suggesting something along the lines of 8x200 at 90% with limited rest such as 2 minutes?



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