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Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:32 pm

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Junior Masters Athlete
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Location: Northern California

I totally agree. I dont spend much time in the weight room and suggest the same to my clients. I stress having a "fit" and athletic body that is responsive to what your asking it to do. Once the body is in shape to handle training loads I feel it is more important that we develop the skills of sprinting and race execution. Chasing that 100lb increase in squat wont necessarily translate into a better sprint performance.

I learned this from personal experience thinking I was never as strong as my bigger competitors. So I spent a lot more time in the weigth room and yeah I got stronger but didnt run any faster. When I worked on perfecting race skills then I saw greater improvements and consistency.

Even today Im still learning more & more about this craft everyone feels comes so naturally.


Aaron Thigpen
Masters Sprinter 40-44
www.Gamespeed.net



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Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:24 am

 
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I can understand both of your points and while I feel that proper technique is very important I would have to add that as a masters athletes we are continually losing muscle mass. Thus I think lifting is a very important aspect of training. A masters athlete could certainly overdo lifting at the expense of other activities like stretching, running, plyo's and technique work which could be counterproductive. But to discount the great importance of muscle strength to the masters athlete I think would be a mistake. We are all different types of athletes and some people will benefit more or less with weight lifting. I know for myself that lifting is my best training aid, while it must be said that I also focus on running, gymnastics and vaulting technique work. I just don't think I would be vaulting 13'9" as a 51 year old guy with out my weight training. Just my 2 cents worth.
Vault On



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Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:55 pm


To say that weight training should take a back seat to video watching is absurd. Trying to get your body across the ring, shot put or discus, and into a proper power position does need to be done technically correct, but without the muscle power to propell your body into these correct postions you can watch video untill your eyes pop out :shock: ... you will fail. The biggest problem I see training men and women is them not being physically strong enough to get themselves into the proper positions to throw far. Who ever first posted this subject says to incorporate as much of the elite athletes technique to your form from this video he has to offer. How are you supposed to glide out of the back of the ring with a strong powerful leg drive in the shot put like Al Fuerbach.... by doing jumping jacks? Lets see...mimicking Mac Wilkens sweeping right leg with a bent left leg driving your body across the ring can be achieved by what...? Power folks!! I'm not saying all you should be doing is powerlifting either, but you have to be powerfull enough to get your body into the proper position to throw , jump or vault as well as to prevent injury. Tell the shot putter Gerald Vaughn, he should not lift and and just concentrate on technique :lol: Lastly, I didn't know this forum was for commercial porposes also, like video sales. I maybe mistaken and they could be giving them away for free...who knows? :wink: Milton Girouard



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Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:15 pm

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Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:18 pm
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Location: Northern California

I'm coming from the aspect of training for a masters sprinter. Not a thrower. I may have misread the orginal thread (my apologies). With that being said, I agree with the general concept. I also would not assume "abarr" was talking in absolutes (totally abandon weight training). Common sense would dictate you have to have a solid foundation of power and strength and maintain it. I agree from the point that once this is established you reach a plateau or point of diminishing returns.

If technique is poor wouldnt it take much more raw power/strength to achieve the same result? On the track if you move your body faster without the proper direction and application of force it doesnt necessarily mean youll run faster. Whats easier for the body to do learn the skill or achieve the physical power?



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Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:45 am

 

In my own personal experience in throwing and coaching throwing events, it is much easier for an athlete to learn the skill when they are physically powerful. In throwing, if you are not physically strong or powerful enough (especially in the legs, lower back and core) to handle the weight shifts , compressions onto a single leg while moving or rotating the body weight and implement ballistically, the technical aspect of the throw tends to fall apart rapidly. I'm not saying running does not use techinique, but it is a different animal than throwing. Yes, watching video of elite throwers can be a great tool, but it can also prove to be extremely frustrating and near impossible to the athlete who is not physically strong enough to perform the drills and movements properly. Obviously, one can get away with a little less overall strength but having good flexible in the javelin and discus. The shot put, hammer and weight throw techniques on the other hand can be tough nuts to crack of you are not powerfull enough to perform the basic drills to prefect the technique. It's only my opinion though and I hope that others in the forum will write and tell us their opinions as well. Milton Girouard



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Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:08 am

 
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Location: Northern California

Actually I think we are in agreement.

Your quote: "The shot put, hammer and weight throw techniques on the other hand can be tough nuts to crack of you are not powerfull enough to perform the basic drills to prefect the technique." and " it is much easier for an athlete to learn the skill when they are physically powerful."

I also think you have to have that baseline power to be able to perform the technique. IF your legs are not strong enpugh to explode out of the blocks learning the technique only wont help at all. We also have to deal with overcoming gravity and leg compression on ground strike so I get where your coming from. Otherwise why would sprinters do plyos and other overloading.

Watching Carl Lewis videos may help you look like Carl while running but you wont run like Carl.

I guess the question is deciding what is that baseline and knowing when you've reached it? :)

Again I may have jumped the gun in terms of the topic specifically (throws) Im just happy theres a form where "Masters" can talk track. I appreciate the exchange. :)



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Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:31 pm

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Location: Chico, CA

I think his post was a bit edgy. I suggested people see videos, such as John Powell's films. John is my friend, but I have no financial stake in his ventures. John has great technique and is a good model. The point was to watch videos of people with good technique. I found your comment extremely offensive.

As for strength versus technique: Both are obviously important. However, too many masters athletes spend much of their time at the health club and not on the field working on specific skills. Consequently, they don't improve.

Dave Weil was my training partner for the two years after I graduated from college. His lifts were not impressive: bench 295, squat 385. Yet, he threw 217.

At age 51, I had a 385 bench, 475 pound squat, and 230 pound snatch.I threw 184-6 with the 1.5 and just under 170 with the 2 kg discus. At age 58, I threw the 1.5 178-4 and the 2 kg discus 154-6. Because of injuries, I don't bench or squat anymore. I switched to more dynamic exercises like thrusters, step-ups, and snatches. My 1.5 discus performance have gone down some but not that much. My 2 kg discus has gone down disproportionately more. I have compensated by hitting a better throwing position and smoothing out my orbit.

Milton, I understand you are a very powerful guy. Your strength will erode as you age. You can compensate by improving your technique. At 40 you are still a young man. Elite performances are still possible at your age. For example, John Powell threw 234 at age 41 and Brian Oldfield threw over 70 feet at that age. You could throw further than you do if you hit the positions better and moved faster. Increasing your bench press is not going to achieve that for you.

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Thomas Fahey
Dept Kinesiology
California State University, Chico
Chico, CA 95929-0330
discusdoc@aol.com



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Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:59 am

 

Mr. Fahey, If you read all the posts I wrote on this subject, I said that you needed good leg, lowerback and core strength. I never once said an athlete must improve only their bench press to improve on their throws. I did say you need over all power and strength to get into proper positions to throw then finally using that energy to balistically launch the implement. You kind of made my point for me when you stated that when you stopped doing your benches and squats due to unfortunate injuries, and your throws have gone down, especially in the 2k. ( which is what I have to throw in may age group for the next 6 years) You also make my point for me when you give us your poundage in your lifts. You obviously were extremely strong and powerfull when you made those distances at 51 years old. At 44, I throw 50' with the 16# shot put and only bench 330, squat 350( on a good day) and power clean 235 as well as work on my technique on throwing days. If I didn't lift to keep my strength at those levels, as unimpressive as they are, I would have never have come close to 50'. Since you've dropped names like John Powell and Brian Oldfield. I was a throws Coach at Los Altos H.S. in the South Bay area and lived in Los Altos Hills ( where John eventually lived as well ) as well as worked out at Foothill College and Iron Works Gym in Campbell, Ca. during the 1980's and worked out side by side with Brian and John on many different occasions( I was not a personal friend only an aquaintance) and they were no slouches in the weight room (especially Brian)and getting their bodies physically ready to throw those great distances we all know they threw. I would watch Brian doing butt to the ground front squats with just under 400 lbs. just popping up from the front squat effortlessly with amazing power and speed. I could never in my wildest dreams, will be able to do that or ever could, but he did and that helped his throws go 70' as a 40 year old. It also doesn't hurt that he was a tall man with long arms and gifted with natural speed. Do you really think he would have throw 70' in his 40's if he just squated 300 and benched 275 for max's? I really don't think so. Was his technique very good, YES...But his overall power put him into another level . The last time I saw John was when he coached for one season at Foothill College in Los Altos Hills, Ca. during 1994 and myself and another thrower were out in the field shagging his throws with the 1k. (Women's discus he would use to work on his foot work and speed) and all he could get out to after almost 1 and a half hours of throwing was 185'-190's with a couple just over 200' . That would have put him around 170-180 ft. with the H.S. discus and maybe 150's to 160's with the 2k. He had obviously stopped lifting for power and it showed. It was a far cry from the 233' W.R. he set just 10 years earlier. In my opinion, proper overall body strength training goes hand in hand with technical training... no more, no less. If all your basing your point on is for throwers that are injured or older athletes that can't perform certain strength exersices then I'm in total agreement that one should try to do the best they can at perfecting their technique. Lastly, if you truly were offended about something that was written by me, I apologize, but opinions are what this forum is about and the sharing of idea's. You may not agree with me and I may not agree with you, but nobody should be feeling offended over idea's and opinions to possibly help other athletes. The readers and athletes of this forum will ultimately be the judge of the information given by this community and hopefully will benefit from it. I think I've beaten this subject into the ground now , so you readers out there, chime in with your opinions and personal experience's....Take care all. Milton Girouard



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Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:08 am

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Master Masters Athlete
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:46 pm
Posts: 42
Location: southern california

qckstep wrote:
I totally agree. I dont spend much time in the weight room and suggest the same to my clients. I stress having a "fit" and athletic body that is responsive to what your asking it to do. Once the body is in shape to handle training loads I feel it is more important that we develop the skills of sprinting and race execution. Chasing that 100lb increase in squat wont necessarily translate into a better sprint performance.

I learned this from personal experience thinking I was never as strong as my bigger competitors. So I spent a lot more time in the weigth room and yeah I got stronger but didnt run any faster. When I worked on perfecting race skills then I saw greater improvements and consistency.

Even today Im still learning more & more about this craft everyone feels comes so naturally.


Aaron Thigpen
Masters Sprinter 40-44
www.Gamespeed.net


Aaron,
I would strongly suggest spending more time in the weight room. The fact that you did not get faster after lifting weights is purely anecdotal, and the lack of improvement could be because your workout did not fit the physics and physiology of sprinting. Power and Olympic lifters are strong but not necessarily fast. They are also powerful but not necessarily fast.

Sprinting is about mass-specific force application in opposition to gravity and not running technique (you would be hard pressed to find a single locomotion expert--i.e. one who has peer-reviewed papers on the subjest of biped and quadruped mamalian running, not a "sprint" coach-- that believes running "technique" has anything to do with running faster. It's about training to increase storage of elastic energy and training to release that energy faster as ground contact time diminshes as top speed approaches. It's about effective impulse from release of stored energy.
The person who applies the most mass-specific force in opposition to gravity coupled with effective impulses during the course of a sprint, will win that sprint.

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Barry Ross
www.bearpowered.com
www.ASRspeed.com



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Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:14 am

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qckstep wrote:
If technique is poor wouldnt it take much more raw power/strength to achieve the same result? On the track if you move your body faster without the proper direction and application of force it doesnt necessarily mean youll run faster. Whats easier for the body to do learn the skill or achieve the physical power?


Actually, you can't move your body faster without the proper application of force. There is no skill involved in running faster. What passes as poor technique is rarely anything but a lack of strength, or more importanly, what I mentioned above, mass-specific force.

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Barry Ross
www.bearpowered.com
www.ASRspeed.com



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Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:38 pm

 
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Location: Northern California

I thought I said : "if you move your body faster without the proper direction and application of force it doesnt necessarily mean youll run faster."

Isnt that the same thing you replied:
"Actually, you can't move your body faster without the proper application of force."

So it would seem to me we are saying the same thing to that extent. However, there are some parameters that from a technical aspect have to be perfromed. Some of us are wired to do the right things and others are not. Take for instance a sprinter whose foot lands in front of his center of gravity (braking) getting stronger is gonna correct this? So if he does not strike correctly by nature, how does he correct it but to LEARN or acquire the SKILL to perform it.

Good Discussion.

Now you can argue he strikes in front becuase there is a lack of specific strength (posutral, hip, lower leg) to place the leg in the right spot but how can you be sure. To take it further it could be a timing issue also or mechanical; premature plantar flexion of the foot. Dont you have to teach these aspects also if the athlete doesnt know?

I'd be the last person to restrict every runner to "beign technically perfect" But I have to argue that there are some commonalities to all superrior sprinters, ground contact being one, thigh seperation at contact. It may not all look the same from runner to runner and thats where indiviidual style comes in. Ben and Carl were two different types and styles of sprinters but they did have the aforementioned technical movements in common.


In terms of the other post. I was referring to my earlier years of sprinting 20's to early 30's. Around 35 I did switch to more specific weight training and strengthen of muscle groups based on the demands of the activity. So maybe my post misled you into thinking time is not spent in the weight room, it is but not in the traditional & olympic lifting sense. For instance I do a whole lower leg program just to strengthen from the knee down and have seen my ground contact time improve greatly. One of the main reasons why Ive been able to keep my speed these years. I also perform postural lifts that focus on maintaining the sprint position. What I am saying is that my training has progressed more and more into activity specific training whether on the track or in the weight room. Im talking balance.



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Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:01 pm

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I teach a course in principles of strength and conditioning to PE majors that includes a unit on sprint technique. About 90 percent of the students have poor technique. However, within a week or so, most have better arm action, full hip extension, proper foot strike, and improved posture. Most increase sprint speed. While strength and power are certainly critical, technique is essential and can be improved.

This argument about strength, power, and technique is silly because all are important. My original point is that too many masters athletes do not emphasize technique enough. Improving basic movement patterns is the easiest way to boost performance. It also helps to be strong, fast, and powerful.



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Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:36 pm

 
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Theres no arguing. I think this discussion is illustrating the importance of both aspects of sprint development. All athletes are different and will need percentages of both some 50/50 some 60/30 and so on. THat will also change as athletes develop and get stronger and acquire new skills. I think this will get readers to think and determine which side is being neglected in their training. It has me re-evaluating and refining some of what I do.

How can we grow if our ideas arent challenged just like we challenge our bodies.

I am ready for a new topic though :wink:



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Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:02 pm

 
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qckstep wrote:
I thought I said : "if you move your body faster without the proper direction and application of force it doesnt necessarily mean youll run faster."

Isnt that the same thing you replied:
"Actually, you can't move your body faster without the proper application of force."


What you said above is "If you move your body faster..." How can you move your body faster and not run faster?

Quote:
However, there are some parameters that from a technical aspect have to be perfromed. Some of us are wired to do the right things and others are not. Take for instance a sprinter whose foot lands in front of his center of gravity (braking) getting stronger is gonna correct this? So if he does not strike correctly by nature, how does he correct it but to LEARN or acquire the SKILL to perform it.


There is no skill involved for several reasons, the most important of which is the lack of volitional response on the part of the athlete...high speed running is too fast for any volitional chemical muscle mechanical response let alone thinking about it. In addition, regardless of where the runner touches down, be it infront of, behind, or directly under the COM, there is a horizontal braking force at work. This is dictated by physics-- in other words it must happen. This same horizontal braking force helps the runner to move the COM over the extend leg at ground contact time, setting up the elastic impulse that propels the runner into his running vector.


Quote:
Now you can argue he strikes in front becuase there is a lack of specific strength (posutral, hip, lower leg) to place the leg in the right spot but how can you be sure. To take it further it could be a timing issue also or mechanical; premature plantar flexion of the foot. Dont you have to teach these aspects also if the athlete doesnt know?


It is a strength issue for the vast majority of those who overstride. I'm quite sure of that. It has nothing to do with trying to place the leg in the right spot. It has to do with air time. Those who are strong enough to apply adequate force, in relation to bodyweight, to offset the effect of gravity don't overstride. They are in the air long enough to cycle their leg to land in the optimum postition. Those who are not strong enough to offset gravity will not be in the air long enough to finish cycle, thereby landing short---hitting heel first or overstriding. If you make that same runner stronger, where they can effectively withstand gravity effects they will not overstride.
This is not a mechanical issue. It has nothing to do with plantar flexion nor dorsiflexion, etc.

Quote:
I'd be the last person to restrict every runner to "beign technically perfect" But I have to argue that there are some commonalities to all superrior sprinters, ground contact being one, thigh seperation at contact. It may not all look the same from runner to runner and thats where indiviidual style comes in. Ben and Carl were two different types and styles of sprinters but they did have the aforementioned technical movements in common.


What you describe is based upon a commonly held viewpoint, that kinematic studies (videos or still) show what a runner needs to do mechanically in order to improve. Unfortunately, there is one HUGE mistake in kinematic study: they don't measure forces.
When you add force measurements at ground contact, where they occur during ground contact, when they disappear, and their magnitude, kinematics become virtually worthless.

Force measurements during high speed running show that those forces could not possibly come from human chemical muscle mechanical work.

_________________
Barry Ross
www.bearpowered.com
www.ASRspeed.com



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Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:41 am

 
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:44 pm
Posts: 16
Location: Overland Park, Kansas

I am a masters athlete and have competed for six years as a masters athlete.

Because of my technical background, I chose to research the subject in detail to find satisfactory answers. Result of this research was the development of TFPredictions Track and Field software.

This software provides Weight Training for Track and Field events such as Sprinting, Running, Jumping, and Throwing. Software provides Power Weight Training (fast twitch muscles) as opposed to Strength Weight Training with specific levels, iterations, and target iteration times.

Weight levels, distances, and iteration times, for specified exercises, accurately simulate individual body accelerations, velocities, and forces actions experienced for the selected event. Specified exercises can be performed at most Gyms such as the YMCA.

I have used this weight training for 5 years specifically for sprinting and triple jumping. A description of TFPredictions software is available at www.jasnook.com



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