masterstrack.com

Barry Ross:

"You're obviously missing the point. You seem to be unable to answer a very simple question...I asked you how force is generated after few strides. I did not ask you how you predict it. The answer has nothing to do with your software's predictive ability. If you understand HOW force is generated than you would understand WHY your workout is not the most effective way to train. "

I think you are missing the point.

I do not have one single workout for training.

TFPredictions software is intended to provide a coach or athlete with information to guide workout content.

The weight training I provided can be used in a traditional way or in other ways that may or may not be more effective.

However the weight, distance, time, etc. specified for an exercise can be used to individually simulate what happens during competition. The number of repetitions does not necessarily have to be followed, one repetition may be satisfactory to establish the level.

TFPredictions software can be used to evaluate the effectiveness of the dead lift approach to sprint training.

"You keep asking the question about speed of performance of the deadlift. I've told you several times that I don't measure speed of any lift because it is not important for training. If you understood HOW force is generated, you would understand why this is so."

"Your statement, "Specifically that strategic body parts produce the required level of performance." is not meaningful. It's the answer of one who does not understand what happens during high speed running."

If the dead lift approach is superior to old fashioned weigh training or other weight training approaches, the weight, distance of movement, and time to accomplish at least one repetition is required to add this approach to TFPredictions software.

Questions will be asked by user as to what these parameters should be.

"Since you've mentioned your background, education, intelligence, experience, etc, ad nauseum you should be capable of answering, clearly and precisely the question I've asked you several times:"

How is force generated?"

I am primarily interested in finding and using training that is effective and does not generate injuries when used.

I could refesh my memory and provide the exact answer you are seeking.
I am concentrating on training effects that increase the force generated.

However, I am not sure that force generation during sprinting is fully understood. Various opinions apparently exist.

When researching the internet on this subject, I came up with the following:

Sprint training produces clear improvements in high intensity exercise performance but the underlying mechanisms responsible for these changes are far less clearly understood than those responsible for improvements in endurance capacity.

Please provide the weight, distance of movement, and time to accomplish at least one repetition using dead lift training for sprinting.

Thanks
_________________
Barry Ross

At high speed running, force application occurs in less than .05 seconds and can exceed by bodyweight by as much as 5 times. These are measured forces and times, not predictions. So tell me how you can match that in the weight room?



I sincerely doubt that since you obviously don't know how force is generated in sprinting.

That's the weakness in your software. It's dependant on parameters that are not valid for training what happens when you run.

I'm sure you hit the mark on the second part of your quest for optimum training, but you're not even in the game on the first part.



Force generation during sprinting is fully understood by researchers. They don't vary their opinions on that issue.

How can you possibly concentrate on training effects that increase force generated when you don't know how it's generated?

That makes me want to order at least a dozen copies of your software



You came up with that tidbit from here:
http://www.medicdirectsport.com/athleti ... p=4&pid=64

I'm sure you recognise that this is an article and not a published, peer-reviewed research paper. Well, I'm not really sure you do realize that

The following is peer-reviewed and is cited in numerous studies by other researcher:

"If the mechanical energy to reposition limbs is provided largely passively through elastic recoil and energy transfers between body segments, rather than actively by power generated within muscles, minimum swing time would be affected minimally by muscle fiber speeds. Similarly, longer strides do not necessarily require longer legs. At top speed, human sprinters take strides considerably longer than those of non-sprinters, although their legs are of similar length. One means of achieving longer strides would be to apply greater support forces to the ground.
At any speed, applying greater forces in opposition to gravity would increase a runner’s vertical velocity on takeoff, thereby increasing both the aerial time and forward distance traveled between steps.
-- "Faster top running speeds are achieved with greater ground forces not more rapid leg movements" Peter Weyand, et al.

Barry Ross:

You wrote:

"At high speed running, force application occurs in less than .05 seconds and can exceed by bodyweight by as much as 5 times. These are measured forces and times, not predictions. So tell me how you can match that in the weight room?"

You are going off on a tangent again that is not relative to the effectiveness of weight training for Track and Field.

TFPredictions software uses mathematical equations to make performance predictions. Calculations are done in much less than 0.05 seconds. You have hear of computers haven't you?

Also, please tell me how your dead lift weight training approach can match the 0.05 seconds in the weight room?

TfPredictions recommended training provides exercises, weight levels, repetition times, movement distances that simulate body movements for the specific event.

For example, in the first few strides out of the starting blocks, weight training weight levels used are calculated according to the equation: drive force = mass times acceleration. Other parameters are similarly calculated.

This approach to Weight Training for Track and Field is not the same as the "Old Fashioned way".

TFPredictions software can be used to evaluate the effectiveness of the dead lift approach to sprint training.

You wrote:
"I sincerely doubt that since you obviously don't know how force is generated in sprinting."

I have just started evaluating your approach that includes the dead lift.
It appears to be useful for strengthening mid body parts. Not sure at this point if it is very effective for other lower body parts. Because I have an old arm injury and do not have the arm strength that I previously had, I may not be able to approach the levels described (300lb).

You wrote:
"Force generation during sprinting is fully understood by researchers. They don't vary their opinions on that issue."

You are going off on another tangent again. I do not care whether researchers fully understand how force is generated in sprinting.

What I am interested in is that underlying mechanisms responsible for speed changes due to weight training are far less clearly understood.

You wrote:

"How can you possibly concentrate on training effects that increase force generated when you don't know how it's generated?"

I fully understand how force is generated in Sprinting.

I have studied the subject in detail in the last 5 years.

However, I am not interested in wasting my time answering academic questions to your satisfaction. I feel your question and subsequent response an insult to my MENSA level intelligence.

You Wrote:
"That makes me want to order at least a dozen copies of your software."

Most of your questions could be easily answered if you purchased and used the software. Are you on a very restricted budget?

You Wrote:

"I'm sure you recognise that this is an article and not a published, peer-reviewed research paper. Well, I'm not really sure you do realize that

The following is peer-reviewed and is cited in numerous studies by other researcher:

"If the mechanical energy to reposition limbs is provided largely passively through elastic recoil and energy transfers between body segments, rather than actively by power generated within muscles, minimum swing time would be affected minimally by muscle fiber speeds. Similarly, longer strides do not necessarily require longer legs. At top speed, human sprinters take strides considerably longer than those of non-sprinters, although their legs are of similar length. One means of achieving longer strides would be to apply greater support forces to the ground.
At any speed, applying greater forces in opposition to gravity would increase a runner’s vertical velocity on takeoff, thereby increasing both the aerial time and forward distance traveled between steps.
-- "Faster top running speeds are achieved with greater ground forces not more rapid leg movements" Peter Weyand, et al."

I also have previously read the above material. TFPredictions software weight training does provide for applying greater support forces to the ground. It does not attempt to increase rapid leg movements.

I was hoping for a more productive exchange of information.

I would ask you how your software weight training provides for greater support forces, but your previous statements show that you have no idea, so you will throw in another non-answer. I'm happy though, that your software does not attempt to increase rapid length movements. I would also ask you to explain why it's not necessary to increase rapid leg movements but I'm truly frightened by what you might propose.

It can't be productive when one doesn't have any idea of what occurs during high speed running, despite that individual's mensa level intelligence. Stop telling us how smart you are; prove it.

The reason I'm not buying your software is because it is has no basis in the causes and effects in running. I know that because you have no idea what are causes and effect in running and, therefore, it cannot do what you propose. In addition, I suspect you understand even less about the effects of strength training on sprinting or any other sport.

I'm sure everybody is sick of this thread, so go ahead and get the last response in. I won't challenge it (it's also a free shot at another ad for your software )

Barry Ross:

Throughout our dialog, I have provided specific information and facts in answer to your questions.

However, all the answers that I have received back from you are quotes of results and opinions from your "Experts" and also negative comments about TFPredictions software and me personally.

Since you have not taken the time to fully evaluate and understand TFPredictions software and to know me personally, your opinions and conclusions are based on ignorance of specific known facts.

Quoting experts can lead to erroneous conclusions. For example: :"Faster top running speeds are achieved with greater ground forces not more rapid leg movements".

It is a simple matter to determine mathematically, "without need to know what occurs during high speed running", that this statement may or may not be true depending on how it is interpreted.

For a fixed distance of 100 meters, a race time of 10 Seconds, a step length of 2 Meters, and running at constant speed:
Strides = 50, Run Rate = 10 Meters / Sec, Stride Time = 0.2 Secs.

If the race time is reduced to 9.8 Seconds:
Run Rate = 10.204 Seconds
Strides can be constant, increased or decreased
Stride Time can be constant, increased, or decreased

The statement :"Faster top running speeds are achieved with greater ground forces not more rapid leg movements".can be true but an interpretation could create doubts as to whether true or not.

I have also found that much of the information available from "Experts", while valuable to know, does not provide practical solutions to problems.
For example, precisely how do you achieve greater ground forces (and not more rapid leg movements ?).to achieve faster top running speeds. No specific details are given.

I have found a few individuals (Experts) who provide very useful results.

I believe you should prove to me that you possess sufficient intelligence to support your conclusions and opinions without help from your so called "Experts".

I have inadvertently proven that I am smart by intelligently answering to all of your tangential questions and unsupported opinions.

I have also proven this fact several times in the past and do not feel a need to do so for you.

In addition I am also very talented and very humble.

TFPredictions software takes individual athletes supplied data, such as height, weight, etc to characterize the athlete.

This data is used to provide a simulation of the athletes performance which is typically his or hers best performance in specific events.

The software also provides "What If" scenario results for other athlete performances such as future target performances.

The selected performance level is then used to provide recommended trainng for specific selected events.

Originally, TFPredictions did provide your supposed "Old Fashioned Approach" to weight training.

However, it has been since changed to provide results that accurately simulate movements (such as leg and foot movements) that occur in Track and Field events.

Accurate calculations of movements, such as those occuring during sprinting, have been used to define the weight levels, movement distances, repetition times, etc.

Because TFPredictions software uses sprint simulation data for weight training, it is not necessary to know all the detains of what is happening internally within the athlete.

The same actions will be produced in a simulation and resulting weight training that are produced in actual event competition.

In real life situations, weight training may not exactly simulate actual event competition, primarily because of the equipment used for the workout.

You Wrote:
"The reason I'm not buying your software is because it is has no basis in the causes and effects in running. I know that because you have no idea what are causes and effect in running and, therefore, it cannot do what you propose. In addition, I suspect you understand even less about the effects of strength training on sprinting or any other sport."

I am glad you are not buying my software. I am not sure I could make any money from the sale. This is because of the time required to answer your tangential questions and respond to your juvenile opinions would take up too much time.

However the software has been doing what I propose successfully for the last 4 to 5 years.

I have significantly increased my sprint times from where I first started 6 years ago. My sprint times are very competitive for my age group when I am healthy and not injured.

Thanks.

Can the discussion between Barry Ross and jasnook go offline to private email addresses? It doesn't seem to be helpful to any others besides the two people involved.

Liz Palmer

Hi Liz,

I'm sure the discussion was annoying, but the difference between us has to do with what makes people run faster. I'm sure you would agree that it doesn't make sense to spend hours in training only to find out that you're training isn't hitting the target.

A runner, in any sport, cannot deny the laws of physics. When you take a stride, you elevate above the ground around 4-5 in. Gravity stops you from going any higher, and gravity acts to push you back down. When you are pushed back to earth by gravity, in essence you become an accelerating mass. When the body hits the ground (land on one foot) force is created against the ground. That force will be multiple times your body weight (that's not debatable, it's just physics). Physics also states that for every action there is an equal an opposite reaction. That means the ground is going to hit the runner (at the grounded foot) with the same amount of force. The runner MUST be able to withstand that force at landing without collapsing. The force the runner applies to the ground to offset the landing and resulting ground reaction comes from an isometric contraction (minimal change in muscle length so its an extremely fast reaction, much faster than a regular muscle contraction).

Anyone who denies the above (which includes the vast majority of track coaches) is saying that gravity is suspended when you run.

Since most coaches either don't understand the above or don't want to accept it, their workouts in the weight room and on the track don't match what is physiologically necessary to help you run faster (or throw a ball further, or jump higher, etc). I know this to be true because I did everything the other coaches do, for about 30 years of coaching.

There are certain simple things you can do in the weightroom and on the track that train your system to utilize the effects of gravity to increase speed. That training also must include increasing the ability to store and release elastic energy that is created when you hit the ground. That is equally important in training, and is one of the reasons training for speed requires running as fast as possible whenever you train.

The simplest way to observe what happens when your body is maximised to create and store elastic energy and the effects of gravity is to throw a superball at the ground (at an angle) and watch how it bounces. It acts as a falling, acellerating body driven by gravity and elastic recoil. It has no "muscles" to push off the ground and no coach gave it any running technique training.

What I'm saying above is what any locomotion expert would tell you about running, and what every physicist would agree with regarding gravity and its affects on the runner.

At the different age groups, Masters competitors want to run faster, want to keep their current speed or lose as little speed as possible. Training for the above will guarantee (yes, guarantee) at least all three. Some of you may exceed your expectations by doing less than what you're doing now .

Hopefully, that's more helpful!

Nicely explained, Barry.
Thanks for your continued contributions to these discussions.

I agree with Liz, the long winded personal discussion between Barry Ross and one other person should take place off line - his 8 paragraph "explanation" of why it should be online says it all - it is a sales pitch, a one-sided "discussion". nothing more.

As a masters athlete I appreciate discussions related to alternative training methods. I've had multiple coaches/trainers in various sports. Many of them employ traditional approaches that ignore a significant factor (age & recovery) which inevitably contributes to injury.

The information Mr. Ross has presented is simple and useful.

Hi-I apologise in advance if this was covered somewhere else on the discussion board-I have picked up Power to the People and am trying out the workouts (deadlifts and presses) suggested there.
Barry's comments are directed to sprinting and I am assuming what is good for a sprinter is good for a discus thrower-other technique issue asside.
Barry-do you have any throwers who have reported back on results from this training?

I was a thrower in college (shot, discus, hammer) and a throws coach. I coached a #2 ranked high school thrower (50' 1.5"). I worked with her over several summers when she competed for UCLA. In the summer prior to her final year we did exactly the same workout as our sprinters do (except with a lot more weight ) , deadlifts and bench only. When she returned to school her teammates drilled her to find out how she got so much stronger over the summer (she didn't tell them). She ended up #2 in the NCAA hammer that year, I believe that was only her second full year of throwing the hammer.

I don't believe for a moment that lifting with me over the summer was the major cause for her rapid improvement in the hammer that year, but I do believe that the foundation laid that summer created a much better base for her going into the season. She had several new 1RM in the deadlift that summer.

I would urge everyone here to read Pavel Tsatsouline's Power To The People. It certainly changed my mind about strength training for sport!

I am assuming we have a democratic forum in place. To suggest that Mr. Ross take his opinions off-line seems a tad dictatorial to me. Are the discussions offered by the complainers to be considered more palatable? You can choose to read or not read. I don't personally find promoting information that may be useful to masters athletes to be offensive, nor have I heard Mr. Ross attack anyone unless provoked. I am also not a realtive or friend of Mr. Ross merely a reader of the forum.
Who is next to be banished because we don't like their thoughts?

Not to mention the enjoyment I get out of reading statements like:

I feel your question and subsequent response an insult to my MENSA level intelligence.

Good one!

And this one:

"In addition I am also very talented and very humble."