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Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:39 am

 
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Senior Masters Athlete
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:44 pm
Posts: 16
Location: Overland Park, Kansas

Sorry, I initially gave the impression that I was providing a sales pitch for TFPredictions software.

My original intent was to provide my experiences on Weight Training for Track and Field.

I wanted make athletes aware that software was publically available that directly link a specific athletes performance to detailed training.

Rather than do recommended training based on "do as I tell you and you will run faster", I feel it is better to have definite training goals in order to run a specific distance in a specific time.

Also, I wanted to understand and obtain information on the Weight Training approach using the "dead lift" exercise.

However, I was side tracked with questions that did not relate to my intent.

Instead, too much time was spent answering negative questions and statements about my intelligence and the approach used by TFPredictions software for analysis and training.

I was hoping to obtain an understanding of the "magic" that the approach using the "dead lift" exercise possessed.

For an athlete weighing 125 pounds and of average height that can run the 100 Meter sprint in approximately 11 seconds, the following force, distance of movement, and time is required when driving out of the starting blocks:

Force = 151 kg (333 lbF) per Leg, Distance Legs Moved = 0.1524 Meters, time of upward movement = 0.3 to 0.4 Seconds.

From the information that I have read and understand from discussion, the "dead lift" approach using 300 lbF provides:

Force = 68 kg (150 lbF) per Leg, Distance Legs Moved = 0.1524 Meters, time of upward movement = Unknown Seconds.

While building up to Peak speed, Force is significantly reduced, Time is slightly reduced, and Distance is probably the same.

I could not understand exactly how the "dead lift" would be superior to other approaches from the above listed data.

The present approach that I personally use for training is to use a proprietary algorithm that uses the required Force, Distance, and Time to provide reasonable target levels for specified Weight Training exercises.

Using different data, the algorithm can also provide target levels for the ''dead lift" approach.

The target levels provided are directly linked to athletes event performance level.

These calculations can be made using pencil and paper, TFPredictons software, a crystal ball, etc.

TFPredictions software greatly simplifies gathering data and providing Weight Training target levels.

All that is required of the user is to have basic computer skills and be able to point and click on the information desired.

Also, if different information is required, entering data by typing may also be required.

A one time entering into a database of the athletes personal data is all that is additionally required.

My initial opinion of the approach using the "dead lift" is that the approach is more useful for Athletes that participate in Throwing events.

I believe it is useful for Sprint Weight Training by providing additional strengthening of an athletes mid body area.

I will continue further evaluation of use of the "dead lift" approach.

Thanks.

jasnook



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Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:55 am

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Master Masters Athlete
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:11 pm
Posts: 76
Location: Peekskill, NY

I have a little theory on the deadlift-sprint connection-to me (as a non-sprinter) the deadlift start position seems a lot like the start position for a sprinter-it might be useful to isolate speed out of the blocks vs. overall sprint speed to see if that is where the improvement takes place.
For the hammer deadlift must exercise most of the major muscles that come into play for that event-the pull of the hammer (for a 200+ ft throw with a 16lb hammer) is over 700lbs at the point of release.



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Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:22 pm

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Master Masters Athlete
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:46 pm
Posts: 42
Location: southern california

tql wrote:
I have a little theory on the deadlift-sprint connection-to me (as a non-sprinter) the deadlift start position seems a lot like the start position for a sprinter-it might be useful to isolate speed out of the blocks vs. overall sprint speed to see if that is where the improvement takes place.
For the hammer deadlift must exercise most of the major muscles that come into play for that event-the pull of the hammer (for a 200+ ft throw with a 16lb hammer) is over 700lbs at the point of release.


:D

Your theory is partly true in that the deadlift helps the start! It also helps the rest of the race.

The deadlift provides the ability to work about 85% of the skeletal muscles in one exercise. Add the bench, or just pushups, and you hit about 95% of the skeletal muscles. The secret of the deadlift's importance is not really just the exercise itself (and certainly NOT how fast it can be performed) but the ability to keep muscle load time under control because the weight can be dropped at the top. Control of load time means control of the phospagen pool and that allows the athlete to get stronger much more rapidly.
This is a huge advantage over doing squats.
But the real issue is why you need to lift weights at all: As I stated in my " 8 paragraph sales pitch" above, sprinting is about withstanding the effects of gravity and the storage and release of elastic energy. Lifting heavy weights increases bone density and recruites larger motor units to fire myofibrils as fast as possible (which is what creates tension in the muscle, i.e. strength). Moving weights fast does not recruit bigger motor units nor does it increase bone density enough to give maximum aid to the sprinter. In addition, muscle volume increases from heavy lifting (without increasing oxygen transport materials such as capillaries and fluids which can add up to 30% of the volume in mucles trained by bodybuilders) as well as tendon and ligament strength increase creation of elastic energy (like the superball, which is quite dense so any forced change in its shape creates elastic energy). The BOGO (Buy One, Get One free) of the deadlift AND lifting heavy in the deadlift increases explosiveness out of the blocks as well. How? Because of those monster motor units recruited as part of increasing bone density and elastic energy creation. So the wiser and faster sprinter minimizes increases in mass while maximising bone density, creation and release of elastic energy all in one simple exercise. Amazing, but true. Oh, I forgot: according to the Weyand study, mass-specific force (force applied in opposition to gravity) has an exactly linear relationship to faster running. Greater mass-specific force=Faster runner, period. What is mass-specific force? The number of multiples of force in relation to mass (not stength in relation to mass).

(I'm sorry this is mostly in one long paragraph, but I'm trying to keep under that 8 paragraph=sales pitch thingy :( )

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Barry Ross
www.bearpowered.com
www.ASRspeed.com



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Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:42 pm

 
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Senior Masters Athlete
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:44 pm
Posts: 16
Location: Overland Park, Kansas

I am a Masters Track and Field athlete that competes in the 60 Meter, 100 Meter, and 200 Meter Sprint events in addition to other events.

My experience is that using the Weight Training that simulates Sprinting does increase speed and does not increase competitor weight if done as specified.

I have found that Multihip exercises at the specified levels among other exercises are very useful for sprinting. These levels appear to be compatible with dead lift levels.

The exercises are not done at maximum weight levels and at a safe repetition rate.

However, I occasionally check a few target repetition times to determine (audit) my actual Sprint fitness level.

During the Track and Field season, I also use Plyometric and Isometric exercises to supplement and at times to replace weight training.

I have found the weight training that I use, Plyometric exercises, and Isometric exercises all help to increase speed to differing degrees.

My interest is in determining whether the dead lift exercise is effective and by how much time my speed is increased.



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Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:18 am

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Master Masters Athlete
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Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:36 pm
Posts: 102
Location: Folsom, CA

Riddle wrote:
I am assuming we have a democratic forum in place. To suggest that Mr. Ross take his opinions off-line seems a tad dictatorial to me. Are the discussions offered by the complainers to be considered more palatable? You can choose to read or not read. I don't personally find promoting information that may be useful to masters athletes to be offensive, nor have I heard Mr. Ross attack anyone unless provoked. I am also not a realtive or friend of Mr. Ross merely a reader of the forum.
Who is next to be banished because we don't like their thoughts?


I think the thoughts are great and the information is useful; I just didn't like the bristling comments and I'm sure there are others who feel the same way. "Provoking attacks" have no place on this forum. There is nothing in my post that indicates my wish for "banishment" because I disagree with opinions; in fact I am a vociferous supporter of the right for all opinions to be heard in any forum. But snide comments can go away.

BTW, I appreciated Mr. Ross's reply to my original post.

Liz Palmer



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Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:51 am

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Master Masters Athlete
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:46 pm
Posts: 42
Location: southern california

lpalmer wrote:

I think the thoughts are great and the information is useful; I just didn't like the bristling comments and I'm sure there are others who feel the same way. "Provoking attacks" have no place on this forum. There is nothing in my post that indicates my wish for "banishment" because I disagree with opinions; in fact I am a vociferous supporter of the right for all opinions to be heard in any forum. But snide comments can go away.

BTW, I appreciated Mr. Ross's reply to my original post.

Liz Palmer



Thanks Liz!

No excuse for the bristling comments on my part :oops:

I will, however, continue to refute myths, misconceptions and urban legends with science...in a more professional manner (hopefully)

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Barry Ross
www.bearpowered.com
www.ASRspeed.com



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Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:36 pm

 
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Senior Masters Athlete
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:44 pm
Posts: 16
Location: Overland Park, Kansas

jasnook wrote:

"My interest is in determining whether the dead lift exercise is effective and by how much time my speed is increased."

Assume a female athlete of average height and weight of 125 pounds that has run the 100 meter dash in 11.0 Seconds.

A preliminary calculation determines that her dead lift weight level should be targeted at approximately 310 pounds.

Also, assume that she would like to run the 100 meter dash in 10.49 Seconds.

If the dead lift exercise approach is as effective as advertised, and strictly from a weight training point of view, she should target her dead lift weight level at approximately 345 pounds.

This prediction is preliminary since I do not have complete dead lift information for an elite athlete.

The calculations were made from equations developed completely and independently by the author jasnook for TFPredictions software.

(This is not an advertisement for TFPredictions software or the use of the dead lift exercise used for Track and Field Training.)

Have a nice day :)



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Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:41 pm

 
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Senior Masters Athlete
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:44 pm
Posts: 16
Location: Overland Park, Kansas

I have a little theory on the deadlift-sprint connection-to me (as a non-sprinter) the deadlift start position seems a lot like the start position for a sprinter-it might be useful to isolate speed out of the blocks vs. overall sprint speed to see if that is where the improvement takes place.
For the hammer deadlift must exercise most of the major muscles that come into play for that event-the pull of the hammer (for a 200+ ft throw with a 16lb hammer) is over 700lbs at the point of release.

FYI:

For a 284 foot hammer throw with a 16 lb hammer, TFPredictions software calculations predict this force to be approximately 727 lbs.



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Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:47 am

 
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Senior Masters Athlete
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:44 pm
Posts: 16
Location: Overland Park, Kansas

Riddle wrote:
"I am assuming we have a democratic forum in place. To suggest that Mr. Ross take his opinions off-line seems a tad dictatorial to me. Are the discussions offered by the complainers to be considered more palatable? You can choose to read or not read. I don't personally find promoting information that may be useful to masters athletes to be offensive, nor have I heard Mr. Ross attack anyone unless provoked. I am also not a realtive or friend of Mr. Ross merely a reader of the forum.
Who is next to be banished because we don't like their thoughts?"


Liz Palmer wrote:

"I think the thoughts are great and the information is useful; I just didn't like the bristling comments and I'm sure there are others who feel the same way. "Provoking attacks" have no place on this forum. There is nothing in my post that indicates my wish for "banishment" because I disagree with opinions; in fact I am a vociferous supporter of the right for all opinions to be heard in any forum. But snide comments can go away.

BTW, I appreciated Mr. Ross's reply to my original post.

Liz Palmer"


Barry Ross wrote:

"Sorry, I'll stick with algorithms by experts in the field."

I felt that my expertise relating to Track and Field was discounted without a full understanding of that expertise.

The comment did provoke a response.

My extensive experience in Aerospace technology is directly applicable to Sprint, Distance, Jump, and Throw events especially the Discus Throw and Javelin Throw.

My extensive experience in Medical Research and Development is directly applicable to Sprint, Distance, Jump, and Throw events especially the Distance events.

I also have experience in Sports Medicine, in particular in designing and building devices for the team physicial for an NFL team based on the west coast.

The devices measured foot force distribution in all different directions under various conditions.

When describing foot forces in running, the exact details and conditions must be specified to have meaning.

I am an experienced USATF Certified Track and Field official.

I am an active participant in Masters Track and Field competition.

My responses have been defensive responses.

jasnook



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Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:07 pm

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Master Masters Athlete
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Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:03 am
Posts: 113
Location: In the sticks, Western PA

Mr. Ross or anyone else -
Can you describe a couple of the isometric abdominal exercises you mentioned as part of the weight training that focused on force generation (i.e. deadlifts). I think I know what that involves, but I was hoping you could elaborate. Thanks. :D

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BLL



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Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:03 am

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Master Masters Athlete
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:46 pm
Posts: 42
Location: southern california

bowleggedlouie wrote:
Mr. Ross or anyone else -
Can you describe a couple of the isometric abdominal exercises you mentioned as part of the weight training that focused on force generation (i.e. deadlifts). I think I know what that involves, but I was hoping you could elaborate. Thanks. :D


This is an example of one. The athlete holds this position for the number of seconds required, then lowers to the ground, takes 2 breaths then returns to this position. The outstretched arms add significant tension to the abs.
We start newbies at 3x5 for 5-7 seconds per rep, building up to 5x5. We stay at 5x5 but continue to increase time under tension to 15-17 seconds per rep. The next level drops back to 7 seconds but the athlete holds a 5 lb weight in the outstretched arms.

Image

I should warn you that everyone gets very, very sore after the first day, regardless of the number of situps or crunches they've been doing :D

You can see other exercises we do at www.bearpowered.com/resources

Have fun!

_________________
Barry Ross
www.bearpowered.com
www.ASRspeed.com



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Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:11 pm

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Master Masters Athlete
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Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:03 am
Posts: 113
Location: In the sticks, Western PA

Thank you for the decription of isometric abs and for the website link for more exercises. You weren't kidding about being sore! Ouch :shock: Thanks again.

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BLL



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Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:13 pm

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Master Masters Athlete
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:46 pm
Posts: 42
Location: southern california

bowleggedlouie wrote:
Thank you for the decription of isometric abs and for the website link for more exercises. You weren't kidding about being sore! Ouch :shock: Thanks again.


LOL :D , your welcome!

_________________
Barry Ross
www.bearpowered.com
www.ASRspeed.com



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