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Should you lift before throwing or throw before lifting?
Lift first 13%  13%  [ 2 ]
Throw first 67%  67%  [ 10 ]
Don't lift and throw on the same day 20%  20%  [ 3 ]
Doesn't matter 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 15

Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:41 pm

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Master Masters Athlete
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Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:07 am
Posts: 40
Location: Youngstown, Ohio

I was wondering what everyone's opinions are on lifting during a given practice session. Should you lift before you throw? Or throw before you lift?
My experience has been to throw then lift because after lifting you are fatigued and can create some bad habits while practicing fatigued.
I am looking for any advice, website, or anything else that can help lead me to a conclusion to my dilema.

Thanks!

_________________
The Hammer
"Throw like you are in first. Train like you are in second."



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Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:21 pm

 
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Senior Masters Athlete
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:26 pm
Posts: 11

Coach,

It has been my experience from every coach I've ever asked that you lift after throwing, or running or jumping. Do the dynamic skill based stuff first while the CNS is still fresh. I'm sure if you posted to effortlessthrow.org you'd get a lot better explanations. I bet buried in books by Tudor Bompa or Paavo Komi is the science your are looking for. If I can find anything specific I'll post again. I'm sure Dr. Fahey could provide some good material on the subject.

One exception to the above rule that was passed on to me by a coach friend was to do a light explosive lifting session(power snatch or cleans) the morning of a meet to stimulate the CNS. Many, many hours before you compete, the effect will be that you've "woken up" your nervous system.

Michael V.



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Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:25 pm

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Master Masters Athlete
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Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:01 pm
Posts: 250
Location: Chico, CA

Studies show the obvious: Intensity is greatest in whatever activity you do first, but the problem is complex. Our year-long goal is to build base fitness during the off season and peak fitness during the competitive season. During the off season, it's important to build strength and power and maintain technique. During the competitive season the goal should be to maximize performance and skill execution on the track or field and maintain strength and other types of fitness.

If you are in shape, you can do an intense weight workout in the morning and do field work in the afternoon. Monster workouts can be a bad idea. I liked the new Rocky movie, but his training methods aren't necessarily best for masters track and field athletes. We could get away with "baby bull" training when we were young. Now we should rely on cunning and savoir faire. Older athletes must rest enough between workouts to recover.

Our main task is to be healthy and injury free at the big meets. That comes from doing intelligent workouts that build fitness without causing injury or overtraining. Every athlete has a different rate of adaptation and recovery. Find out which exercises and programs help you perform better and which cause injury. The squat, bench press, or clean are not contested in our sport. Try something else if these lifts cause joint problems or back pain.

It is critical that we do something year round. You can build strength, power, and aerobic capacity in the fall and winter doing training exercises without maintaining peak track and field fitness. For example, doing kettlebell swings in the fall is a great way to build the hip and core muscles without overloading the joints.

I took 6-weeks off from throwing the discus in December and January and trained seriously with weights. I am throwing poorly right now. My back feels great but the discus is flying like a dying swan. The motion feels very good but the distance isn't there. So, maybe my ideas on training are incorrect. I hope I get some big winds this season to make up for lack of strength and speed, arthritis, and a sluggish nervous system.

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Thomas Fahey
Dept Kinesiology
California State University, Chico
Chico, CA 95929-0330
discusdoc@aol.com



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Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:39 pm

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Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:07 am
Posts: 40
Location: Youngstown, Ohio

I'm glad people have voted and have shown their opinion on the topic. What I would like though is some solid advice or even better literaure (websites). Fact is, I'm a high school throwing coach. My school recently hired a new football coach and he has, to say the least, pretty much taken over the place. Up until this year I've had my own say on what goes on with my throwers but this year he wants to have a say in what goes on in my practices. My head coach says he isn't going to let him take over but in reality he has. The football coach wants my throwers to lift with his football team because some throwers are football players. I feel that my lifting program maintains the strength they have gained in the off-season and causes them to become more explosive with the lifts I have them do. Also I need to prepare them for throwing competitions not a lifting meet or football season.

They always do:
Day 1 (Mon) - Bench, squat, deadlift, lunges, military, and aux if time permits
Day 2 (Wed) - Incline, front squat, power cleans, step-ups, push press, and aux if time permits
Day 3 (Fri) - Jump squats, clean and jerk, lunges, bench throws, neider press, and aux if time permits

When the season begins we cut it to 2 days (Head coach request) to allow them time to recover for invitationals on the weekends. Again my head coach and I disagree here because I think we should train through the regular season and peak at the league meet and carry through for districts, regionals, and state. He wants them to target every invitational to earn trophies and ribbons. He's my boss though so what he says goes.

The football coach wants a four day-a-week lifting program with the same types of lifts. The difference is the timing.

I always lift at the end of practice because my feeling is I want them to fresh when they throw because I'm under the belief that if you throw tired you're very likely to compensate for being tired and causing bad form to be practiced rather than being able to hold good form being fresh. Also mentally I feel you need to be fresh so that you can try and comprehend the corrections I'm trying to have them make in practice.

He wants them to lift from 3-4 (schools out at 2:30), throw from approx 4:15-4:45, condition, then team stretch at 5:05 (Head coach requires this time).

I told my head coach my opinion and he sided with the football coach. I was hoping for some solid literature to share with my head coach to try and show him my opinion was valid and not just made to contrdict the head football coach. Any help is appreciated.

_________________
The Hammer
"Throw like you are in first. Train like you are in second."



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Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:21 pm

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Senior Masters Athlete
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:53 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Minnesota

Hi Coach,

What you are wanting to do is exactly correct. Your lifting schedule, lifts (but I would suggest adding in the snatch), and training cycle to peak at the end of the season is right on the money.

When it comes to training two different types of things on the same day, whether its throwing, lifting, running, biking, whatever, my philosophy has always to train the most important thing first. Whatever you are doing second will be hindered at little because of fatigue from the first activity. On occasion however, that may be the desired result, but for the most part, do the most important activity first.

Looking at your season approach, you want your kids to peak at the end of the season at the most important meets. In high school track, there are so many meets, you have to train through them. If you cut things back so they aren't lifting before meet days, you wouldn't be getting much lifting in!

Now with your football coach, I guess the question should be - Is it football season now, or is it track season? Is he doing the same thing with his football players who also play baseball or golf? This is an issue that your head coach needs to back you up on, and it should be brought to your athletic director. An athlete's number one priority should be to the sport that is in-season. That sport comes first before other sports. I'm sure the football coach wouldn't take too kindly to the basketball coach pulling his kids to have a Monday shooting session in October, and then they can go out to football practice after. I am all for teams working out together in the off-season, but you can't pull athletes who are in-season in another sport into in. And its completely unfair to put the kids in that position. That kind of climate in an athletic department is only going to cause more problems, if its allowed to continue.

I hope you get things worked out. This is something though that is worth fighting for. Good Luck.

Scott



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