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I have been studying the films of great discus throwers of the last 50 years. Some, like John Powell, place the right foot in the center and rotate on it fully to build rotational velocity. Many European throwers (and Mac Wilkins) pre turn the foot after driving very hard out of the back of he circle, which provides an incredible amount of torque but sometimes breaks the movement (at least in technically challenged throwers). Alwin Wagner (who beat me at San Sebastian) does this very well.

Question to throwers and coaches: what are the advantages to each method? What works best for masters who are old, slow, and weak?

Tom Fahey M59

Hi Tom-I have not focused on this before-I must be technically challenged!
does Powell land and immediately pivot the foot toward the back of the circle-(I have one of his DVD so I can go back and check)
As far as the pre-pivot of the Europeans-where is the right foot pointed on landing? if the front is 12 is the foot pointed at say 9 oclock?

On some euro style it is 6 o'clock.

Catch Lars Riedel. He turns completely around to face the front of the
circle. You can pre-turn without all that leaping and jumping.

I was mistaken. John teaches stepping and turning but didn't do it himself. I asked him about this. He teaches a complete turn in his camps to help throwers develop a continuous turn in the middle on the right foot.

Tom Fahey m59 thrower

Interesting that JP would teach something different than what he used-he must think that it is an improvement over what he was doing when he was competing.
I know of the video they show some drills to improve foot pivot-I haven't tried these yet but I will in the future.

Powell said that he teaches the step and pivot to instill the importance of turning the foot completely without a break. In his technique, he turned the foot in the air and continued the turn when his right foot hit the center of the circle. He said that most throwers "plop" in the middle and stop instead of turning continuously.

He told me I wasn't ready for the midair turn. I hope to prove him wrong. Although, it's hard to turn your foot quickly when you're old, slow, and weak.

Tom Fahey M59 Thrower

Thanks for the info Tom-I have never really focused much attention on the foot pivot but I will go back and review the drills on the JP DVD. I throw off of some rough surfaces so keeping the pivot going is not that easy-some amount of pre-contact pivot would probably be helpful.

I have also wondered about form modifications for older throwers-I think we lack the elasticity that younger throwers have so I have been thinking about ways to compensate-older throwers with long levers seems to have an advantage.

Turning the right foot is particularly important when using the no-reverse technique. Masters throwers should probably avoid this technique. While it is a good way to prevent fouling and allows for a full range of motion, it can be very hard on the back. Lars Riedel, the great Olympic discus thrower, used that technique successfully but has had at least two back surgeries. Most old throwers can't come back from back surgery— unless you're Larry Pratt.

Larry Pratt broke the American record (55-59) 6-weeks after back surgery. I have been trying to beat that record for nearly 5-years and came close in Hawaii. I'm thinking about having a spring implanted in my spine to get a few feet and leave Larry in the dust. Larry is a legend!

Tom Fahey M59 Thrower

i myself compete in the 55-59 masters age group , this past summer at the Long and Strong Classic saw Larry Pratt throw made us young guys look like school kids great technique , also watched Glenn Thompson a 40 -up master thrower hit 180 feet in the discus at the Keystone Games, phenominal both guys , anyone who competes in a meet with either two present , watch and learn , both guys are always helpful with the tips of course all masters are that way

I've found the turning of the right foot to be deceptively difficult. Part of the challenge is gaining your body's trust during an inherently instable movement. Your body naturally wan't to be as safe and stable as possible when doing a movement that puts it at potential risk for injury and falling. Spinning around falls into this catagory. The right foot will want to "plop" in the middle as Tom said.

A couple tools I'm using, with gradual success, are drills to gain body trust and encourage the turn.

One is to practice turns without weight and turn the right foot before the left foot has landed into the power position. This teachs your feet and ankles that it's ok to pivot in an inherently non-stable situation. I've actually found that slick department store floors of all things are perfect for this. But make sure you're in an aisle where nobody's watching;) All the world is your training gym.

Another trick, which will inevitably come up if you train with dedication, is to get your worn out shoes resoled with a faster sole. I've used resoles.com with great success, and know that such throwers as Reese Hoffa and Adam Nelson do as well. Shoes #3 for optimal conditions are soled with kevlar, which provides a fast, hard surface to turn on. You can even wear a slower shoe, if you have one, on your left foot, while wearing your fast shoe on your right foot to emphasize this while turning in the circle.

i will try that on my old pairof adidas any edge at mt age will help

i get to see Larry compete every year at the Long And Strong Classic , held in in Denver ,Pa at Cocalico High School usaually in the beginning of July he is a great competitor , as are many that attend the classic those of you who are able to get there put it on your agenda , i made it partof mine from now plus nearby adamstown is the antique capital of the world , the ladies and some of the guys whose ladies compete might want to visit there , also you are right in Pa Dutch Country excellent atomosphere , great crafts , foods makes for a fun time

Great now you made me think, lol.
I think I pivot off my left foot to start, then turn midair and landing on my right foot, but I haven't been outside to try in about nine months.
I like the forum.

To turn the foot, or not to turn the foot – My observations. I look forward to hearing reactions.

It doesn’t take a very in-depth review of videos of world class throwers before you realize that some do, and some don’t. The fact that they are world class throwers is proof that long throws can be achieved using either style. Why do some throwers land in the middle with the foot pointed roughly to the side and keep it continuously rotating throughout the remainder of the throw, while others land in the middle virtually already in the power position? It stands to reason that the technique you see is what that particular thrower has found to produce the longest throws given their own unique mix of size, strength, speed, and athleticism. The real question for those of us who are trying to develop our techniques is what mix of these attributes favors one style over the other? My assessment is that it comes down to power vs speed.

Those throwers that arrive in the middle with their foot pointed to the side tend to be the more powerful throwers. They arrive in the middle without much hip-shoulder separation and then use the turning of the foot, combined with a slowing of the discus to recover hip-shoulder separation, while developing a tremendous stretch reflex at the power position. Because they have slowed the discus in the process, their throws are little more than a very highly torqued standing throw. These throwers tend to be the ones that can produce extremely long standing throw distances, and their full throw increase over their stands tends to be somewhere around 15%. This technique is easier to learn, but takes a lot of strength to produce long throws.

Those throwers that arrive in the middle having rotated more or less all the way around to the power position tend to be the speed guys. They do not lose as much hip-shoulder separation prior to landing in the middle, and so they do not need to slow the discus in order to regain it. They hit the power position with the discus moving at a higher velocity and then rely on their final thrust from the power position to create the stretch reflex. This move requires more speed and precise timing, and produces somewhat less of a stretch reflex, but the forces are acting on an implement which is already carrying more speed than the implements of the power throwers. This technique can produce increases over standing throw distances well in excess of 20%, and for this reason it is often practiced by throwers who do not have great standing throws, but the technique is more difficult to learn.

Footnote: Virtually all throwers of the 1kg discus use the technique that employs turning the foot after touchdown in the middle. Could it be that my so-called speed technique is just a compensation for not having sufficient strength to handle the heavier implement? Or, (I’m going to get in trouble for this one) are women and “old men” not skilled enough to handle the more difficult technique?

WHY ruin a perfectly interesting article with your last statement.