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Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:59 pm

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Location: oregon

Just got in my entry for nationals. $45 certainly seems spendy to me. I saw there is a $10 surcharge in that but with already forking over money for a membership, etc. it seemed that it was a bit overpriced.

Perhaps it's always been this way but driving up there with gas prices, etc. just didn't realize or expect being a masters track athlete to hit the wallet so hard.

MORE: "expendable cash NC's"- that's a good one, hadn't heard that...yeah, only one event as that's all I'm training for and more events would also mean more nights in a hotel for me. Just tough to see $45 when the Hayward Classic and Regionals are both $20, which both seem a bit high even then but are certainly reasonable.

I'm only 31 but what happened to the days of $3 for unlimited events at a track meet?


Last edited by mellowjohnny on Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:12 pm

 
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You must be only doing one event. I guess that's why some people call it the "expendable cash NCs". It's a bummer, but I know it is also really expensive to run a meet.



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Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:04 am

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It costs a lot to put on a National Championships, so the entry fee is not out of line. The Hayward Classic is a bargain. The people in Eugene know how to put on a first-class meet. All track and field athletes should compete at Hayward field at least once.

Don't forget to donate to the official's fund. These hard working people are the heart and soul of the championships. We couldn't have a first-class meet without them.



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Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:44 am

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where are those? who is paying to use the track - who is paying for USATF officials, for FAT timing, for sanctioning etc.. If what you want is a well worn track and someone with a stop watch, I will be happy to oblige - come to my local regional high school track - when school is not in session - I have a stop watch, will be happy to time you , just watch out for the potholes.
Otherwise for a good track - everyone wants money to let you use their track - and for the rest of what it takes to put on a decent meet.
I do not think that $45 is a lot of money for a National Masters Track Meet. The facility has to be rented, many officials housed - fed, equipment rented, medical emergency folks on hand, water provided, etc - none of this is free. While you may think that lots of companies are just dying to pay to sponsor such a meet - think again - Nike is not coming up with the big bucks, nor Rebok, NB etc - none of them give a penny.
I pay between $20 and $45 for a state senior games meet (got to be atleast 40 to participate in those) and some are well run - some are quite a bit less than that, all are one day events. If you are lucky they have FAT timing and a USATF official on hand, and if you are really lucky - they might get the results straight. No hurdles, no steeplechase, nothing longer than 1500m, no decathalon, no super weight etc. It is what I call "track lite". $3 track meets - really - well - ok - there are some track meets run by a local running club at various high school tracks around my area - all-comer meets - limited events - no FAT timing, no USATF officials, no setting of records, just a bunch of kids and a handful of adults, a stopwatch, a shout of "go". Cost - $5 for adults.



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Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:58 am

 
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MJ - just so you know, out east here school is out for the summer. Hopefully the lecture from RF70 was free. Perhaps you can audit a course of his in economics. :P I do agree that the entry fee for NCs is expensive (and when you factor in lodging and travel it really adds up), but it does take a tremendous amount of resources to run a Championship caliber meet. My NC experiences have been wonderful - great meets, run as well as could be expected. I have put on enough large meets (none as large as NC) to know what it takes to run a meet. Had the good professor done his homework he might have figured out that you are a distance runner and things such as FAT and all the bells and whistles of a NC meet probably aren't top priorities. Don't travel the whole way to Mass. to get timed - you can stop by in PA and I will time you myself and buy you a beer afterwards!! :lol:
My only advice (other than to ignore the ranting of RF) is to think of the money you spend for Nationals as a vacation or a reward for all of your hard training throughout the year. It's worth it, and it makes the experience that much more special. Ironically, I don't have the cash to make it to Spokane. Likewise, I haven't trained as hard as the times I have gone to Nationals, so in my own mind I don't deserve it anyway. Good luck MJ!!



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Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:02 pm

 
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Thanks for the kind words, bowlegged.

And for the free lecture, runfast :lol: .

All-comers meets at Hayward Field have been $3 in the past and they've offered the steeple, 5K, etc. Quite the bargain. I realize that's not the norm- being able to run at one of the highest quality facilities around. A lot of it is due to volunteer officials who I greatly appreciate (as I've officiated for several years myself).

I was merely posing the question as $45 seemed (I used that term several times) expensive to me, that's all. I certainly wasn't blasting anyone in my post whatsoever.



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Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:24 pm

 
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It is all relative.
The 1998 Nike World Games in Eugene, was a $200 entry fee.
Luckly, I got my company to sponser me in it.



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Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:38 pm

 
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For a national championship meet, the 45 dollars seems like a fair price per event, it just that you wish to compete in a national meet, other things have to be factored in (such as airfare, hotel. car rental, gas prices etc) and then weigh the whole package, (on whether it worth the time, effort and cost.)

From what I have heard, it is.



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Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:43 pm

 
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PDelis50 wrote:
For a national championship meet, the 45 dollars seems like a fair price per event, it just that you wish to compete in a national meet, other things have to be factored in (such as airfare, hotel. car rental, gas prices etc) and then weigh the whole package, (on whether it worth the time, effort and cost.)

From what I have heard, it is.


Thanks, PDelis...exactly the type of response and info I was looking for.



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Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:54 am

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I don't have an issue with the entry fee but I do have to ask why the late entry fee is $50. Why $50? Why not $20? That was my deciding factor in not signing up for Spokane. I was forced to wait 'till the last minute due to injury but I just couldn't justify ($45 + 20 addt'l event + $30 USATF membership + gas + $150-$200 hotel + $50 late entry). I was looking at $300+ for two events and running sub-par times due to injury.

I got more satisfaction driving down to Eugene on Thursday, paying $3 for the 400/200 and running at Hayward. I'll do it again next Thursday.



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Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:00 am

 
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Fiddle,

You're not alone in questioning the amount of the late fee -- or late fees period. In fact, the definitive refutations of the need for late fees was posted a long time ago by my friend Andy Hecker, a veteran meet director who has allowed day-of-meet registration for years:

http://www.trackinfo.org/editorial.html
http://www.trackinfo.org/editorial2.html

Truth is, today's technology allows for day-of-meet registration in all but a handful of cases. It's a matter of will, more than anything.

_________________
Ken Stone
http://www.masterstrack.com



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Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:45 am

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Those were very interesting editorial. If I'm not mistaken, those were written 10 years ago? Were any changes implemented after San Jose?

Thanks!



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Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:34 pm

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Oh, its going to be a big one.

The changes have all been for the negative. I have proposed, in the National Committee meeting, on several occasions that the late fees and forced early registration be abolished. Not only was I voted down but I was treated like I was an idiot. Face it, there are too many people who are "in charge" that will not listen to the message. They will cover their ears and hum, hold their breath until they turn blue but they will cling to their inflexible ideas. Face it, a late fee is a penalty you pay to reward the meet organizers for their own incompetence.

I have been under constant, bordering on the irrational, attack from a small clique of meet directors who hate the message I give; Track and Field meets must always make last minute decisions--last minute registration does not affect a well planned meet because you can always fit the last minute entrants in. Instead I constantly see meets that paralyze their efficient operations by printing the race seedings days in advance--then they are unable to adjust when people don't show up (places that could be filled by allowing other people to show up). As a Masters meet director, I would much rather have the extra entrants. Its friendlier, it makes each race better when you have someone in the lane next to you and more entrants brings in more money.

The caveat I will allow is the rare occasion when a last minute walk-up causes an extra heat to be run--I think I have seen it happen twice in a decade. Most of the time for Masters Nationals, we already have the time for trials scheduled in the events that normally have them, some people get their nose bent when they actually have to RUN a trial.

While I continue to operate meets, most of them the Southern California USATF Championship meets, with same day registration, I continue to be told it is impossible at that level. When I had the opportunity to do the 2000 USATF West Region meet, 335 competitors showed up to register for a one day meet--all same say registration. Quality of the meet? Well I had six people qualify for the Olympic Trials and another six qualify for their National Olympic teams from that meet--I'd think we ran things up to standard for those elite athletes. While I did run late compared to the printed schedule that day, for which I have no end from one critic, that was due to the fact that this was actually the first meet I directed alone--I ambitiously designed the schedule to be too efficient. Since then I have made a more relaxed schedule (most Masters seem to prefer a relaxed schedule) and things have been to schedule except for the year the timing system shut down. Nationals have never had to deal with technical problems, have they (Charlotte)?

How do I do it? I forget about the computer and use very simple, tried and true paper systems. I also do my work at the meet, when (if they show up) I have helpers, officials and experts (of which most Masters athletes could qualify to be called about their events). I go a step further and request that nobody register in advance. I do not want to be inundated by all that stuff, coming from various sources (e-mail, FAX, phone calls, on-line registration systems and snail mail) that I have to find (snail mail frequently arrives after the meet), coordinate and deal with all alone. When I get to the meet, I have to run a duplicate system just to figure out who actually showed up. Each one of these are problems that hold back most meets. I prefer to get my entries in one place at one time, I prepare the seeding once, and do the work just for the people who actually chose to show up. From that, I still get people dropping out (mostly the 200 for some reason) and occasionally somebody wants to run a race that has already happened. No system is perfect for those situations.

To my credit, I think my meets are among the best seeded meets around. Its is rewarding to see that "V" forming down the center of the track. Some of that is because I can go beyond the N.T. many people list for their entry time. I have gotten to know who is good, who wants a competitive race and who would have a better running time with the older folks. I also communicate "Hey Joe, you are on the bubble, do you want to run lane 8 with the kids or lane 5 with the older group?" Of course in smaller meets, we combine age groups most of the time.

I have put a great deal of thought into this--trying to find solutions to quell the arguments. Initially the problem is FEAR. These people are not used to or comfortable making last minute decisions. They want everything in a nice neat little package. I work as a Television Director, last minute decisions are a normal part of my life. People can write scripts and draw up story boards, but there is always a tree, phone pole or city official in the way that make you have to ad lib to get results. I guess I am just more comfortable trusting in my ability to think (on my feet). FEAR, get over it.

The technical problems are compound. Let me try to break them down.

Meet Directors spend thousands of dollars to license HyTek software to organize their meets, so they feel compelled to use it. But they don't know all the nuances of the software and Masters will not work under the rudimentary HyTek set up most people use. I have spoken with with HyTek as I try to dissect the problems I have been involved with at meets and their software does contain solutions. Very few operators do Masters meets enough to know how to use them.

The key weak point is getting DATA into the computer--too many keystrokes. This is repetitive data. Locally, how many people compete in our events? Out of 17 million people, the whole local USATF membership is only a few thousand. We only have a small number of complete newbies show up--those are the only people we should have to enter the full fresh data into the computer. We already have the existing member's information in a USATF database--that I have tried for years to get made available to meet directors who are paying to sanction their events through USATF. The National Office, so far, can't find a secure way to let us release that information. That mailing list is valuable. Oh and if it gets into the wrong hands somebody else might violate their privacy. The point is, most people's data doesn't change--all that typing could be avoided.

Here's a great business idea I haven't followed up with: Many Colleges and now some High Schools have paid database systems in place to handle their meet registrations and backwardsly tabulate cumulatively seasonal results. Nobody is doing that for Masters on a large scale basis.

And then there is the money . . .

By getting your paid registration early, meet directors already have the cash in hand. They don't need to care if you bother to show up. They say they need to know how many people are going to show up, but lets invert that question. If they have a low turnout, will they cancel the meet? Will they book the track for fewer days (in the case of the multi-day National meet)? Will they downsize any of the services--fewer officials, a cheaper timing system? Doubtful. Well there are a few items that they might adjust. They might order less merchandise--fewer medals, T-shirts and goodie bags. But most of that stuff has to be ordered well before the money comes in unless you move the registration deadline to some ridiculous date like a month in advance of the meet. Ooops.

The fact is, the costs of putting on a meet are relatively fixed. We Masters are not going to get anything subsidized for us, so forget about us getting $3 All Comer meet rates. By the way, our All Comer meets in Southern California are FREE!, but the local school board subsidizes them at a cost of around $60K a year so underprivilidged members of the community won't be turned away because they can't pay. The cost of the facility is not always cheap but you don't need to take the most expensive bid in town either. Locally, UCLA as great facilities, but its not worth three times the cost of any other track in town. Negotiate or move on, some places might actually WANT us to visit. On the facility side of things, somebody has to pay the hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars it takes to build and maintain a good facility. We are the rare outside renter of such facilities and to the administrators of a facility, it looks like a good deep pocket to dig into. And who are the other likely tenants? Youth meets. With their thousands of entrants, they are much more willing to pay the high fees. The impact that many people (including parents) make on a facility makes such administrators demand more in compensation. Old people don't make such an impact, but they don't understand this concept. Frankly, in my years of trying to organize track meets, its hard just to get an administrator to answer a phone call, much less return a message. In short, youth events make it harder for us to find a reasonably priced facility to rent.

Timing systems need to be rented, but their fees, top to bottom, don't vary that much. The best are usually worth it compared to the problems you might get when you take the lowest bidder. Officials have to be paid. They should be paid, they are the life blood of meet operations. Unfortunately they are not normally paid enough for the miles they drive much less the hard work they put in.

You book for the size of the meet. We know Nationals are going to take 4 long days, you will need shifts of people. A small meet doesn't need that much support and won't be able to afford it from the revenue generated. It takes me around 130 participants to make the nut, the amount of money it takes to put on the meet without any outside support. I would love to have the kind of money generated by the National meet because (about 1000 entrants, even averaged out over 4 days) it gives the financial resources to do more. Of course, more amenities are expected of the organizers of the National Meet. But with the stronger revenue, I don't need to sweat paying for and feeding an extra official to make things go better. Oh yes, food. That's an expense and how much food do you order a month in advance? I'd prefer to get mine fresh, thank you.

The major weak spot in my paper system is results. Doing things by hand on paper doesn't get you neatly printed results on the internet in seconds. Of course, people are impatient. If you watched Ken's blog during the Olympic Trials, he had the results quickly typed and on his blog anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour before USATF, connected to the results computer, did. I was watching. I can't hope to match Ken's speed as a typist, but with a real budget like the National Championships, I could afford to hire a professional typist to lay the nice neat results out in minutes. Or we could just find the rare right person to make HyTek work the way it needs to, which still includes on-site check-in and day of the meet seeding.

For any event, you need to predict the size of your event. We now have a 40 year history to draw upon. A track meet is not suddenly going to turn into Woodstock. We choose to take on a meet with the expectations that it will draw something comparable to previous meets. We don't exactly jump into a meet we expect to fail.

One additional factor that makes the fees at Nationals more expensive: All entrants pay an extra fee that goes to support the National Committee. The $80,000 we get from USATF does not support all our efforts. Those various programs require the supplement from the National Championships. There is a smaller similar fee that comes from and goes to supporting the efforts of each region.

The bottom line is, we Masters have to pay our own way to play.



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Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:52 pm

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Here's what I sent to the USATF organizing committee. Not sure if it'll make a difference...


Hello everyone,

I’ve recently become highly interested in competing in masters track and field. I’m writing this email to voice my concern regarding registration fees, amount of late entry fees and lack of day of race registration. These concerns are the reason I’m not able to compete in Spokane this year. I’m sure these concerns are shared by lots of other masters competitors as I’ve read masters blogs and message boards which support my email.

Due to a minor injury on 7/6, I was forced to wait until the last minute to register for Spokane. Well, I wasn’t ready to commit at the entry deadline of 7/24 so I decided to spend the extra $50 and sign up by the listed late entry deadline of 7/30. It got to be 11:30pm and I just couldn’t justify spending close to $400 to enter the meet. Why $400 you ask? This is the breakdown:

$45 first event+ 20 addt'l event

$30 USATF membership

$50 late entry

$250 hotel + gas

I don’t mind paying for the hotel, gas and USATF membership fee since I budgeted for that already earlier in the year but do you have to charge so high for one event? Why the high late entry fee? Why not $20? Where does that money go? With today’s technology, I’m sure day of race entries is doable. Our sport already lacks participation and exposure. I believe that if we eliminate registration hurdles, we could see more masters athletes competing in track & field vs. opting for the local 5k.

My injury has healed now and I could have competed if you had offered day of race registration. But, I can’t justify the $50 late fee. Can you?

Thank you.

This may fall on deaf ears but I feel some good athletes are staying home due to the cost.



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Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:16 am

 
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The entry is pricey, but I can live with and understand that. But the entry deadline is foolish. As a masters runner, I live with the possibility of injury around every corner. Because of this, I refuse to enter masters national track meet weeks in advance. Twice in the past, I've entered - then been unable to run when injury struck. This year, I'd love to be running, but wasn't willing to throw away the entry fees if injury struck again. Too bad, as I'm doing quite nicely this week, and would be competing in Spokane if Andy Hecker's rules were in place.

On the other hand, I've run in 12 masters national cross-country championships, and will - barring injury - run in 2 more this fall. Road race championships are even better when it comes to later entries. FYI, we had over 500 entries for the masters cross-country race at Club Nationals in San Fran two years ago, and about 400 for the less weather-friendly race in Ohio last year - that's cross-country, folks, the weak cousin of track!

If the people in charge of masters nationals can't handle later entries, then perhaps they should take a refresher course from every single meet director of every single college invitational run every weekend of every spring. Those meets handle more athletes and more heats than Nationals could possibly hope for.



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