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I was playing around with the age graded tables. I gained two meters in the discus in two weeks when going from 59 to 60 (1.5 kg performance versus 1 kg performance). I stopped throwing for 10 years after college. My age predicted performance at age 60 was 10 meters further than I threw at age 22.

1. Did I really suck when I was young or did I quit too soon?
2. Am I relatively better throwing the lighter implements or do changing implement weights make it difficult to determine age graded performances?

Tom Fahey M60 thrower

Age-graded tables should be avoided. Totally screws up the weight pentathlon for the Nationals.

I like the rankings instead. Some other guy around my age throws so far and I either throw more or less.

I always wondered why they needed age graded tables for throwers when the implements kept getting lighter as you got older. That seemed to me to be its own age-based adjustment. But then I got over it because I don't know anyone who pays any attention to age-graded performances anyway. To me it's just kind of a silly exercise that is probably fun to do for the statisticians out there, but without much value.

Quick, What's your PR? Anyone can tell you in a heartbeat. How about - What's your age-graded PR? The response you're likely to get is, "Huh"?

All you need to know is, "Am I getting better", or maybe, "Am I getting worse slower than my competition". If you want to compare your performances to athletes in their prime you're just living in denial.

I compete infrequently against S. Patridge, whose standing throw with the 2k beats my full throw with the 1.5k. The last thing I need is to try to compare myself against a 25 year-old.

I can channel Rex Harvey on this question:

Forget about the Age-Graded Tables telling U what you should throw or should have thrown now or in your prime.

The Age-Graded Tables exist mainly (and officially) for only one thing: to score masters multi-event competitions.

Without age-grading, it would be impossible to come up with point totals, since the IAAF scoring charts don't have listings for the 100-meter hurdles, for example, or for the lighter implements.

So fret not! The AGT is just a tool for WMA scoring geeks.

All this age grading and lowering weights as you get older is so there are more masters throwers competing to pay fees, go to meets and organizations make more money in general than they would if the weight of the implements always stayed Olympic standard. In my opinion, If you can't throw the 16# or 2k. anymore, then it's time to throw the javelin or race walk , officiated...whatever. They don't shorten the races for the older runners do they? Are the 75+ year old runners racing the 20 meter run in place of the 100 meters? Are they substituting the long jump or triple jump with the standing broad jump or bunny hop for older athletes? Wouldn't it be easier for them as well and we could find some discombobulated chart to figure out what they would have jumped if they just actually did the jump. Does anyone really care what they would have done now, compared to when they were in their 20's and really believe that age grading chart is that acurate? Is someone holding out on a time machine we should know about and is going back to Mexico City to change history and knock Al Oerter out of his Gold medal? Leave it all on the field! One weight for everyone and who ever throws the farthest, wins!! If everything followed the k.I.S.S. method and we'd all be better off...

I agree with IronSlinger. I do want to know what I can do compared to what I could do then, and it is harder to determine if you are throwing a different implement. I was a recreational decathlete (5700 points) and can still three-step 42 inch hurdles as I approach my 50th birthday. While lowering the hurdles is the first age related change I would approve, why not just use more steps instead of shortening the spacing? Why not just throw shorter instead of throwing lighter?

I threw the 2 kg discus in meets throughout my 50s and threw reasonably well (161-8 at age 51 and 154-6 at age 57). The past few years it has gotten progressively more difficult to throw the big discus. I haven't had any serious injuries (except for the usual aches and pains) and train 12-months a year. Now, I feel like I've been run over by a truck after a 2 kg discus workout. I see the wisdom in decreasing the weight with age. I'm not sure my old body could take the pounding of the heavy implements.

Tom Fahey M60 thrower

Tom, I totally feel your pain....literally but don't you think, pole vaulters in their 60's and 70's feel more pain than when in their youth? Sprinters...Jumpers...distance runners do, but they still compete in their events without assistance of making it easier. Well, maybe some hurdlers do, but what a mess there would be on the track if all the runners crashed and burned over the first high hurdle... That's the beauty of keeping the weight the same. Myself and I'm sure many others, find it way more impressive that you throw the 2k. 154' in your late 50's, than throwing the 1.5k, 170-180' at the same age. I would love to see Charles Roll in his early 60's, throw the 16 lb. shot 40-45' !!! Ok...here's a consession, we lower the weight only one time, at 65, to 6 k. in the shot and 1.5k in the discus. What an impressive performance it would be to see Gerald Vaugh throw 40-45 feet with the 6k.shot in his 70's!!! Throwing has been treated in Masters like when I was in H.S. and they put the kids who couldn't do anything else in track and field , with the throwers. I find it almost insulting that anyone can just walk up( because of the lowering of implement weights) and pose like a thrower in the ring for one afternoon, toss the implement 10 feet and say they "Wow, that wasn't as hard as I remember it in H.S." It never fails that when I speak of Masters track and field in a group and tell folks I'm a Masters thrower and the first thing out of some jerks mouth is, "Don't you throw the H.S. or girls shot put and discus in Masters competiton?" NOOO ---hole!! There are true weight men and women, 40-70, out there that understand my message but most won't. I understand the aches and pains...I have them as well, but there is a sunrise and sunset to every athletes time as a competitor and to sacrifice that by lowering weights and then letting every Tom, Dick and Harry just walk in at the end and say " Wow, I should have taken this up years ago..." cheapens the sport that alot of us worked very hard to try and perfect in a lifetime. Sorry if some of you think I was a bit too brash. If I was, I apologize, but it was to make my point. Tom, If you can throw the 2k. 150' when you turn 70 and God willing I'm still here, dinners on me!!! Now that would truely be an impressive feat !!!!!!! Train hard and stay healthy everyone! Milton Girouard

Well, if they somehow change the rules so that everyone throws the 2kg for life, then I hope you both have fun.

The good news is that you'll always get either first or second place.

FUN thats what this is all about. Isn't it fun when you realize how technical the throws are as an event and you have to practice and study and throw your brains out trying to do it correctly!

I want to sprint and in the meantime I met the shot and discus. I decided to give it a go while I was trying to force my body to run. I LOVE the throws. They are so technical and difficult and cool.

The throw isn't about the weight, it's about the technique. That's what makes it so fun. A well executed throw! People who throw understand that. If dropping down in weight keeps people who love to throw in the event that's a good thing

Ironslinger, you know you're good and you should be happy to see people trying these awesome events. So what if they just want to try it or don't get what throwing really is. They don't take anything away from what a really good thrower has managed to achieve!

Tom Fahey I plan to say hi at a meet sometime soon. You are very impressive no matter what weight you throw.

Leigh, Very good point and you are absolutley right, it should always be fun. But fun is defined by each individual. Most are very content with the weight standards as they are because they've known of no other standard through out their Masters career and are comfortable with it. It is a great way to stay fit , while competing at a comfortable level. Others, though few they may be, may want to stay at the highest standard possible for as long as their bodies can withstand it and push the limits in throwing despite of their age, as Tom Fahey and others have done past the age of 50 with out the weight reduction in an implement ( as per his 154' 6" discus throw with the 2k. at 57 years of age) There is no category at a Masters Nationals for an athlete to try and do that. There is no category in Masters rankings for an athlete over fifty to be ranked for doing that. Why can't some do it competing at a masters level competition instead of at a collegiate meet as most have to? As time goes on we are becoming fitter and staying stronger as a society and maybe we could rethink these standards is all I'm asking. Even though Tom Fahey stated he enjoys throwing the lighter implements these days, wouldn't it have been nice for him to possibly have had the stage to have set a World record or close to one with that 2k. discus throw he had at 57 years of age? I guess that would be up to him to answer...and I hope he does Look also at the women throwers. One drop of 25% from the 4k. to the 3k. in a lifetime ( which would be going from the 16lb. shot to the 12lb. for Men's, so one change and that's it...) and they throw the same weighted discus throughout their lifetime. Us guys go through 5 shot put changes ( if were lucky) in a lifetime and 3 discus changes. These wonderful women in most cases are two thirds to three quarters our size and maybe half ( more or less) our strength. You gals rock!!!!! You brought up some very good points Leigh and I hope other throwers and athletes chime in on this subject! As for Jake and your response...cool website dude!

Hi Ironslinger (what's your name?), we have had a discussion about the weight changing in the old yahoo group about masters athletics. Some were not in favour of lowering weights, as you are, among them a certain Dick Held, as I remember well. And me, but I am not a real thrower although I like the javelin and the hammer. I would prefer throwing the same weights all life. As a test (to compare with M90) I even tried as W57 the 7.26 shot (5.24m standing) and the 7.26 hammer (just over 12m). The implements are heavy, really, but distances are shorter and that's it. So I fully agree with you.
It would make statistics of the throws more interesting, comparable to statistics in the runs (no one lowers 800m to 650m, but the hurdlers...) and in the jumps (triple jump isn't changed into quadruple jump to reach the same jumping distances). I thought throwers were the strong ones, but seeing the lowering weights in masters athletics they in fact are the weak ones!
As a compromise I would back the idea of keeping the masters weights as they are, but adding of the open class weights as an official discipline for all ages up to 120. So you can choose, like choosing between weight throw and super weight.

Hi Guys and Gals

I do have to admit that when I realized the weight for women's shot goes down at age 50 I thought less of the performances. I don't plan on being weaker or "older" when I hit that next age group. I'm hoping by then I'll have some really good technical skills and will be able to throw the shot out there. I can't say that at that point I would be thrilled by the weight change if my throws are good. However, the 4k is heavy to me now. It's really hard work and it's beating me up. I have a hard time keeping the ball in when I'm getting low because my hands are kind of small. This does not mean that I don't love it or that I'm complaining about it. It's just how it is. I certainly won't stop because of it, but I can see how some people might.

Weia, your idea is excellent about having the choice of which weight to throw. It's so cool you tried those heavy implements.

Ironlinger, your passion is obvious and I totally get what you're saying and won't disagree. You guys have way too many changes and the 16lb is insane! I love watching the guys who throw that sucker! It's just that at some point in life the strenghth is going to change and that will affect the technique and then the thrill is gone. I don't know. It's just such fun to throw and it would be sad to see good throwers stop because they physically can't handle the weight.

GREAT DISCUSSION. Thanks guys!

Check out my December 1999 NMN "False Start column on "Hurdles Down- Weights Up"
at: http://www.geocities.com/ortmanmarchand/fs6.html

David E. Ortman (M54) Seattle, WA
==

Dave, Great article!! You hit it right on the head. I hope you don't mind but took a piece of your writing and I'm attaching it to this post for those interested- "However, at the risk of getting a shot put dropped on my hurdling foot, I fail to understand why in Masters Track & Field the weights get lighter as one gets older. For masters men, there are four different shot put and hammer weights, three different discus weights and two different javelins. Frankly, I don’t think I need to throw a lighter shot put or discus when I hit fifty. You see, one of my goals is to break 35 feet with the college and open 16# (7.26k) shot put. I once putted the round orb 34’6" and it just wouldn’t feel right to break 35 feet at age 50 with a 6k shot put. Same is true for the college and open 2k discus. I’m still trying to hit triple figures (100 ft.). I hit 98 ft. once, but I’ll be darned if I’m going to go home happy breaking 100 ft. with a lighter 1.5k discus when I hit the M50 division.

This notion of old guys needing lighter weights falls by the weighside (many puns intended) considering the heightened interest in the 35#, 56#, Super-, Ultra- Beyond the Ultra - and things as heavy as refrigerators- weight throws. I mean, what’s up with this "I want to pick up something as heavy as my car and throw it seven inches, but once I get into the shot put ring, I can’t throw anything heavier than a marble"?

So I say, from college to the grave let there be one shot put and let that shot put be 16#. " Dave, what kind of feedback did you get from the article? What was your final thoughts on why everyone is so opposed to leaving the shot put at 16#'s? Thanks and I look forward to your answers! Milt Girouard /Article was written by Dave Ortman for NMN, December of 1999.