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Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:26 pm

 

Here's an interesting find that may show American and German throwers, at least in the Men's shot put, are the majority of throwers who may mainly care about the lighter weight implements after 50 years of age. Look at the MastersAthletics All-time World rankings site and you'll see what I mean. In the Men's 35-39 list, 12 out of the top 62 throws are held by Americans at a rate of 20% of the list. In the Men's 40-44 list, 5 out of the top 45 throws are held by Americans at a rate of 12% of the list. In the 45-49 list, 9 out of the top 51 throws are held by Americans at a rate of 18% of the list. This is were it gets interesting...In the Men's 50-54 list, 24 out of the top 51 throws are held by Americans at a rate of 48% of the list :shock: and Germans have 11 out of the top 51 throws at a rate of 22%. Both Countries combined is a whopping 70% of the list. It doen't change for the Men's 55-59 list. The Americans own 19 out of the total 46 throws and are at a rate of 42% of that list and the Germans are 14 out of the top 46 at a rate of 30%. Between both countries they take up a staggering 72% of the list. In the Men's 60-64 shot put All-time list the countries flip flop and the Germans take 40% of the longest throws in that group with the Americans at 28%, both totaling 68% of longest throws on that list. Same thing goes for the Men's 65-69 group where the Germans take the cake with 49% of the longest throws :shock: :shock: and Americans, 24%, totalling 73% of that list. If the throwing world as a whole, were so pro-lighter weighted implements, wouldn't there be a better balance between countries as there is in the All-time shot put lists of the Men's 35-49. What say ye throwers, fact or fiction?



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Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:33 pm

 

Nice to know Ken thinks a human being thrown for distance is a "Hoot". Ken, what do you think about the just the Open shot put instead? If Ken thinks throwing people for distance should be an event, I'll be the first to start it in Denver ...or better yet, Boulder...there are alot of really light distance runners there...but would the USATF approve this? Hmmmm... WARNING ! Never ask a runner what to do with the throwing events...LOL!!!!! :wink:


Last edited by Ironslinger on Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:38 pm

 
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Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:03 pm
Posts: 54

UH OH!!! IRONSLINGER, a fellow thrower and quite possibly the "king of us" posted the video. It was discusdoc!



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Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:18 pm

 
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Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:56 pm
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Location: Houston, Tx

Ironslinger wrote:
Here's an interesting find that may show American and German throwers, at least in the Men's shot put, are the majority of throwers who may mainly care about the lighter weight implements after 50 years of age. Look at the MastersAthletics All-time World rankings site and you'll see what I mean. In the Men's 35-39 list, 12 out of the top 62 throws are held by Americans at a rate of 20% of the list. In the Men's 40-44 list, 5 out of the top 45 throws are held by Americans at a rate of 12% of the list. In the 45-49 list, 9 out of the top 51 throws are held by Americans at a rate of 18% of the list. This is were it gets interesting...In the Men's 50-54 list, 24 out of the top 51 throws are held by Americans at a rate of 48% of the list :shock: and Germans have 11 out of the top 51 throws at a rate of 22%. Both Countries combined is a whopping 70% of the list. It doen't change for the Men's 55-59 list. The Americans own 19 out of the total 46 throws and are at a rate of 42% of that list and the Germans are 14 out of the top 46 at a rate of 30%. Between both countries they take up a staggering 72% of the list. In the Men's 60-64 shot put All-time list the countries flip flop and the Germans take 40% of the longest throws in that group with the Americans at 28%, both totaling 68% of longest throws on that list. Same thing goes for the Men's 65-69 group where the Germans take the cake with 49% of the longest throws :shock: :shock: and Americans, 24%, totalling 73% of that list. If the throwing world as a whole, were so pro-lighter weighted implements, wouldn't there be a better balance between countries as there is in the All-time shot put lists of the Men's 35-49. What say ye throwers, fact or fiction?


I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. Is it that Americans and Germans dominate the 50+ rankings in shot put, but if they were throwing the "open" weight implements they wouldn't dominate? Or are the stats you quoted for 50+ with the heavier implements?

Sorry, but I'm just not getting your point.



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Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:26 pm

 

Greg, I just wondered why many of the 45-49 throwers on the world all-time best list throwing the 7.26k shot put, who were so dominant from countries other than the USA and Germany, decided to not throw the 6k. shot at 50-54. I'm sure their bodies didn't just give up at Midnight of their 50th B-day. Usually when your that competitive at 45-49, that drive doesn't shrivel up and die either. I'll name ten throwers ( making up 20% of the 45-49 world all-time list) I see that could have possibly competed 50-54 with the 6k. shot and popped out some amazing throws, excluding present 45-49 throwers on the world best all-time list and athletes from countries that may have had political reasons for their athletes 50+ not to be able to leave the country or access to masters track at that time... Matti Joupilla-FIN (18.10m - 59' 4.5") 1990 / Pierre Colnard- FRA (17.71m - 58' 1") 1976 / Bjorn Anderson- NOR (17.05 - 55' 11" ) 1983 / Aleksander Tammert-EST (16.08m - 52' 9") 1996 / Oiva Lahitinen- FIN (16.01m - 52' 6") 1979 / Sid Clarke- GBR ( 15.80m - 51' 9.75") 1978 / Jokinder Singh-IND (15.31m - 50' 2.5") 1981 / Alessandro Meconi- ITA ( 15.22m - 49' 11") 1976 / Stig Erickson-SWE (15.21m - 49' 10.75") 1986 / Gudnior Hermansson- ISL (17.72m - 58' 1.5") 1970. The only questionable one on this list is Mr. Gudnior Hermansson of Iceland. He may have throw a bit too early, before Masters Track and Field was intoduced to Europe, Iceland or Greenland. I believe Mr. Paine helped with one of the first European Masters meets in 1972 in England, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway... If the lighter shot put was such a relief or reward for those turning 50 , why didn't more of the worlds best who were aproaching 50 not take advantage of it? Just something to think about is all. A great little article named " Hurdles Down, Weight Up!" from his 'False Start series' that Mr. David Ortman wrote, shows his contempt for the lighter weighted implements in his 1999 article, " ...However, at the risk of getting a shot put dropped on my hurdling foot, I fail to understand why in Masters Track & Field the weights get lighter as one gets older. For masters men, there are four different shot put and hammer weights, three different discus weights and two different javelins. Frankly, I don’t think I need to throw a lighter shot put or discus when I hit fifty. You see, one of my goals is to break 35 feet with the college and open 16# (7.26k) shot put. I once putted the round orb 34’6" and it just wouldn’t feel right to break 35 feet at age 50 with a 6k shot put. Same is true for the college and open 2k discus. I’m still trying to hit triple figures (100 ft.). I hit 98 ft. once, but I’ll be darned if I’m going to go home happy breaking 100 ft. with a lighter 1.5k discus when I hit the M50 division.

This notion of old guys needing lighter weights falls by the weighside (many puns intended) considering the heightened interest in the 35#, 56#, Super-, Ultra- Beyond the Ultra - and things as heavy as refrigerators- weight throws. I mean, what’s up with this "I want to pick up something as heavy as my car and throw it seven inches, but once I get into the shot put ring, I can’t throw anything heavier than a marble"?

So I say, from college to the grave let there be one shot put and let that shot put be 16#."
Makes sense to me...
Milt P.S. I just realized after looking at old World Games programs that the Men's 50-54 shot putters threw the 12# shot not the 6k. until the late 1970's as far I could find, but I don't have an exact date yet when it changed over. I'm researching that now. That would explain why at least five of my throwers listed are not in the World all-time best shot put 50-54. Either they decided not to throw the 12#, or did and since it was changed over to the 6k. never got credit for world bests or records. Funny to hear some 50+ talk about " ...what will happen to our records if the weights change..." but never thought about the pioneer throwers 50+ that started this whole thing, and for over ten years trained and practiced as hard as we do now to set records to only see them disregarded. If no one had changed the weights to begin with and left the implements Open weight standard, we wouldn't have this problem.



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Sun May 17, 2009 8:12 am

 
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Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:27 pm
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So, just spent three months throwing almost every Saturday with Gary Kelmenson and the UC Santa Cruz throwers (when they could get out of bed).

We threw the 56#, 35#, 16# hammer, 2k discus and 16# shot.
Six throws all official like, measuried and recorded.

Learned a bunch. Starting with the 56# makes the 35# seem light, which makes the 16# hammer seem light. You get gassed if it is hot, but you learn to just keep going.

So, next stop is the PAUSATF open championships next week. Gary and I will be throwing the hammer. Open rules mean no masters implements.
So, everybody is on a level playing field.

After doing this, I would really love to see a change to all open implements. I'm so tired of having to buy smaller stuff and still claim I'm a thrower.



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Sun May 17, 2009 11:12 am

 
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Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:16 pm
Posts: 7

Ironslinger wrote:
Greg, I just wondered why many of the 45-49 throwers on the world all-time best list throwing the 7.26k shot put, who were so dominant from countries other than the USA and Germany, decided to not throw the 6k. shot at 50-54. I'm sure their bodies didn't just give up at Midnight of their 50th B-day. Usually when your that competitive at 45-49, that drive doesn't shrivel up and die either. I'll name ten throwers ( making up 20% of the 45-49 world all-time list) I see that could have possibly competed 50-54 with the 6k. shot and popped out some amazing throws, excluding present 45-49 throwers on the world best all-time list and athletes from countries that may have had political reasons for their athletes 50+ not to be able to leave the country or access to masters track at that time... Matti Joupilla-FIN (18.10m - 59' 4.5") 1990 / Pierre Colnard- FRA (17.71m - 58' 1") 1976 / Bjorn Anderson- NOR (17.05 - 55' 11" ) 1983 / Aleksander Tammert-EST (16.08m - 52' 9") 1996 / Oiva Lahitinen- FIN (16.01m - 52' 6") 1979 / Sid Clarke- GBR ( 15.80m - 51' 9.75") 1978 / Jokinder Singh-IND (15.31m - 50' 2.5") 1981 / Alessandro Meconi- ITA ( 15.22m - 49' 11") 1976 / Stig Erickson-SWE (15.21m - 49' 10.75") 1986 / Gudnior Hermansson- ISL (17.72m - 58' 1.5") 1970. The only questionable one on this list is Mr. Gudnior Hermansson of Iceland. He may have throw a bit too early, before Masters Track and Field was intoduced to Europe, Iceland or Greenland. I believe Mr. Paine helped with one of the first European Masters meets in 1972 in England, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway... If the lighter shot put was such a relief or reward for those turning 50 , why didn't more of the worlds best who were aproaching 50 not take advantage of it? Just something to think about is all. A great little article named " Hurdles Down, Weight Up!" from his 'False Start series' that Mr. David Ortman wrote, shows his contempt for the lighter weighted implements in his 1999 article, " ...However, at the risk of getting a shot put dropped on my hurdling foot, I fail to understand why in Masters Track & Field the weights get lighter as one gets older. For masters men, there are four different shot put and hammer weights, three different discus weights and two different javelins. Frankly, I don’t think I need to throw a lighter shot put or discus when I hit fifty. You see, one of my goals is to break 35 feet with the college and open 16# (7.26k) shot put. I once putted the round orb 34’6" and it just wouldn’t feel right to break 35 feet at age 50 with a 6k shot put. Same is true for the college and open 2k discus. I’m still trying to hit triple figures (100 ft.). I hit 98 ft. once, but I’ll be darned if I’m going to go home happy breaking 100 ft. with a lighter 1.5k discus when I hit the M50 division.

This notion of old guys needing lighter weights falls by the weighside (many puns intended) considering the heightened interest in the 35#, 56#, Super-, Ultra- Beyond the Ultra - and things as heavy as refrigerators- weight throws. I mean, what’s up with this "I want to pick up something as heavy as my car and throw it seven inches, but once I get into the shot put ring, I can’t throw anything heavier than a marble"?

So I say, from college to the grave let there be one shot put and let that shot put be 16#."
Makes sense to me...
Milt P.S. I just realized after looking at old World Games programs that the Men's 50-54 shot putters threw the 12# shot not the 6k. until the late 1970's as far I could find, but I don't have an exact date yet when it changed over. I'm researching that now. That would explain why at least five of my throwers listed are not in the World all-time best shot put 50-54. Either they decided not to throw the 12#, or did and since it was changed over to the 6k. never got credit for world bests or records. Funny to hear some 50+ talk about " ...what will happen to our records if the weights change..." but never thought about the pioneer throwers 50+ that started this whole thing, and for over ten years trained and practiced as hard as we do now to set records to only see them disregarded. If no one had changed the weights to begin with and left the implements Open weight standard, we wouldn't have this problem.


Milt,

Tammert was in college in 1996, and he is only about 36 today. FYI.



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Sun May 17, 2009 11:36 am

 

Bronchothrower... Aleksander Tammert Jr. (Born- 2 February 1973) is married to Slovenian javelin thrower Elizabeta Randjelovič Tammert with daughters Alissa and Izabela. Aleksander was a Bronze medalist at the 2004 Athens Olympic games for Estonia.
His Father, Aleksander Tammert (28 April 1947 – 27 October 2006), was a retired shot putter and athletics coach. He won the European Junior Championships in 1966... FYI
:wink:



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Sun May 17, 2009 2:03 pm

 
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Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:16 pm
Posts: 7

Ironslinger wrote:
Bronchothrower... Aleksander Tammert Jr. (Born- 2 February 1973) is married to Slovenian javelin thrower Elizabeta Randjelovič Tammert with daughters Alissa and Izabela. Aleksander was a Bronze medalist at the 2004 Athens Olympic games for Estonia.
His Father, Aleksander Tammert (28 April 1947 – 27 October 2006), was a retired shot putter and athletics coach. He won the European Junior Championships in 1966... FYI
:wink:


Well played. I threw against Alex Jr. all the time in college. Wasn't aware of his father.



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Sun May 17, 2009 2:16 pm

 

No problem Bronchothrower...There are so many throwers out there it's hard to keep track at times. Good luck to the Double G's at their upcoming PAUSATF Open Championships. Please keep us posted on your results and how you both did. One last thought...I hope you folks out there don't think this post was all about complete change in the weights, just an introduction of it. It's just nice to see these gents taking the challenge of throwing the Open weights past 50 and enjoying themselves. If there are more of you out there, write in on this post and let us know of your experience or results. Hopefully it will be a rewarding one, if not to anyone but yourself...



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Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:57 am

 

Interesting...see the www.mastersathletics.net, shot put world ranking so far for 2009, 40-44 vs. 45-49. Again, very close in marks. Another common pattern from last year is the fairly well balanced grouping of athletes from all over the world in the 40-49 shot put rankings and then the inordinant amount of USA shot putters (10 out of the top 15 ranked shot putters) on the men's 50-54 list, showing USA throwers are very pro-light weight implements compared to the rest of the world.



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Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:26 pm

 
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Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:53 am
Posts: 6

I see what you mean. Even in 2010, the American 45-49 age group in the shot put has amazing distances compared to the younger ages.



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Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:38 pm

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Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:53 am
Posts: 6

This Summer's 2011 WMA World T&F Outdoor Championships will also show how dominant the world's 45-49 year olds are compared to the rest of the 16lb. shot putters from 35-49. The highest ranked thrower attending so far is 48 year old Stuart Gyngell of Australia who has a throw of 59' 0.5" (18.00m). Mr. Gyngell is already signed up and registered for Sacramento. There are 3 throwers in the 45-49 world-wide rankings over 52' 6" (16.00m) and 8 throwers worldwide over 50' (15.24m) and two of them are from the USA. There may be a possible lull in the 45-49 group in the next couple of years (2013) as the 40-44 throwers start trickling into the older age group. Aside from Rich Harrison (40), there are no real big-time throwers in that group so far from last years numbers, mostly 42'-45' throwers. So this, and next year may signal the temporary end of a strong American throwing cycle for 45-49 shot putters, before it dips into the next five year generation.



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