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Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:33 pm

 
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Master Masters Athlete
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:27 pm
Posts: 105

Greg,

They are easy. Just pick the right events. I got mine throwing with my left hand.



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Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:20 pm

 
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Master Masters Athlete
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:24 am
Posts: 202
Location: Utrecht (Netherlands)

I made a spreadsheet with the All American standards (as published on the NMN site; I did not understand the men's weight throwing) compared with the WMA age gradings. There is some critique on the age gradings, but at least they are smooth.
The AA standards contain many inconsistencies, and I do not understand at all how they are calculated.

The men's A-A's are tougher than the women's.
Runs, jumps and throws are not comparable as a group. but maybe that is OK. But within the runs there are discrepabncies, within the jumps and within the throws.
Through the ages A-A's are not comparable too...

Some examples:
100m. Men going from M35 87.6% UP to M50 and M55 90.0% than going down to M75 82.5% and sharper decline to M85 67.4% (where the age gradings are too much declining in the high age groups already). Women W35 74.4% also going UP to W60 80.6% and than to W75 72.1% and faster decline to W80 67.2%. So around 10% difference between men and women! But maybe the doped open class records used in the gradings for women are partly to blame.

Other runs. Mostly the same pattern. But 400m women going UP from W50 74.0% to W80 86.5%. Completely different pattern.

Short hurdles. Easier, lower percentages.
Long hurdles. For men comparabable with other runs, for women much easier. (As a feminist I start shouting...)

Jumps. Lower percentages than runs (although gradings are already steeper). Men's high jump around 80%, women's high jump around 67% (but going UP in the high age groups).
Pole vault rather much lower percentages, in the women even much lower. Pole vault W60 is 37.3%, I should not mention that a standard of excellence. Long jump in between high and pole, triple jump a lot easier.

Throws. Lower percentages than jumps and as always for men more difficult than for women. Shot highest percentages. Many inconsistencies.

Etcetera. A mess. When the new gradings come into use (2010?) maybe a more consistent set of A-A-Standards could be designed. Simply runs 80%, jumps 70% and throws 60%. Or something like that.

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regards, Weia



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Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:14 pm

 
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Master Masters Athlete
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:11 am
Posts: 87
Location: Northern Illinois

rev gj wrote:
I got mine throwing with my left hand.


No, you got yours the same way as I did....throwing with two hands!

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"No matter which you choose, you won't be too far from being right." -- JChang



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Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:58 pm

 
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Journeyman Masters Athlete
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:29 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Eugene, OR

weia - Comparing the AA standard to the WMA age grading shows some serious inconsistencies, but it isn't just the AA standards that are flawed. The age grading tables are also dramatically off in some cases.

I think it mostly comes down to a lack of data from older athletes. In some events and age groups we don't exactly have huge number of athletes competing, and just one or two superb athletes can skew the entire model in an event.

I'm not sure I would call any All American standard easy, but some are easier than others, and some are so challenging that most years no one makes it.

In my age group (M40-44) the most glaring error is in the 3K vs 5K:

3K All-American = 10:00 = 7.5 laps at 80.0 seconds per lap
5K All-American = 16:15 = 12.5 laps at 78.0 seconds per lap

How is it that the 3K is actually slower than the 5K? And it isn't just a matter of there being fewer 3K races so they softened the standard to increase the number that make it. Most years many people make the 3K time, less make the 5K, and almost no one makes the 10K time (a harder than the 5K 33:30 in spite of the fact 10K's are hard to find).

I understand a new person has taken over the All-American standards this year, so maybe there will be some changes. Unfortunately I don't remember what his name is...



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Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:26 pm

 
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Junior Masters Athlete
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:46 pm
Posts: 3

I found out something very interesting. You may compete in a category younger than your age but not above your age. I know of a woman who throws in the 35-39 age bracket but is 56 years old.
Why would someone do this? Why is this allowed? It sort of takes away the honesty of the whole thing don't you think?



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Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:42 am

 
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Master Masters Athlete
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:24 am
Posts: 202
Location: Utrecht (Netherlands)

In world championships and alike you are competing in your own class and nothing else.
In my country in the national championships they have complex rules for combining classes when there are not many competitors. And so it sometimes happens that W35 and up all jump for the same medals. And then it is quite nice to beat the 'kids'.

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regards, Weia



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Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:58 am

 
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Master Masters Athlete
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:56 pm
Posts: 105
Location: Houston, Tx

weia wrote:
Maybe I do not understand the meaning of 'all american', but it sounds rather pretentious. That's why I asked what they are meant for. As minimum entrances in your national championships? They are indeed more or less equal to the entrance limits that the Germans use for their nationals. And indeed I see that in this years rankings W55 of the US quite a lot did not get that A-A-standard. The Germans have in all disciplines 2 or even 3 times more women that would get the W55 standard – but in Germany masters track and field is best developed of the whole world, there you have a point.
At closer view I now see that in Oshkosh many were below the standards, so it are not the entrance limits.
Of course I do not judge athletes against the world records, but I can judge how much speed and strength and technique are necessary to get one of those standards and still think that it is not that much. For W55 that is.


In the US, college athletes who reach certain performance levels are proclaimed "All American" athletes by the National College Athletics Association to recognize that they are in the highest tier of performance in their sport. This Masters All American status, is an attempt to apply some sort of similar recognition to those who reach a certain performance level. In many cases the performance levels are challenging but attainable, and so one might get a sense of accomplishment by achieving them. But I agree that they are very inconsistent across age groups and events, with respect to just how much of a challenge they are. I have no idea how they are set.



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Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:02 pm

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Master Masters Athlete
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Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:01 pm
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Location: Chico, CA

College athletes achieve All-American status by placing in the top 8 in the national championships. For masters, I suggest setting the All-American standard equivalent to the 12th best performance during the previous year.
I think the standards give people motivation to train and improve.

Tom Fahey (M62)



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Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:56 pm

 
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Master Masters Athlete
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Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:03 am
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Location: In the sticks, Western PA

Once again, the good doctor is throwing right down the middle of the sector. Excellent suggestion. I agree that A-A gives people something to train for. I realize some athletes can get the A-A standards in their sleep and others may never even sniff an A-A standard. 12th or 8th or whatever mark from the previous year or an average from the last X number of years is appropriate. Whatever the standard is I am going to train in hopes of achieving it in the sprints, hopefully getting it for the first time since 2007.

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BLL



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Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:53 pm

 
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Senior Masters Athlete
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:07 pm
Posts: 13
Location: Napa, CA

My guess is that at some time someone looked at the national rankings (maybe several years worth of results) and determined what it took to make it into the top 10 in that event, and that became the standard.

For the M50 division events that I follow, this seems to how it breaks down. This year there were only 4 of us long jumpers that surpassed the AA mark, however 21 hurdlers made it. But the average seems to be around 10 per event.

It's probably a good idea to review the standards occasionally (once a decade?) to keep them where they were originally intended, but I would hate to see them change every year. I prefer a stationary target to one that moves every year.

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Tony, Men 50-54
All-American: Jumper, Hurdler, & Multis



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Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:02 am

 
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Journeyman Masters Athlete
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Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:17 pm
Posts: 39

weia wrote:
Maybe I do not understand the meaning of 'all american', but it sounds rather pretentious. That's why I asked what they are meant for. As minimum entrances in your national championships? ....

All-American marks are not used as a minimum entrance standard for national championships. In fact, anyone that wants to enter a national championship meet is allowed to do so if they comply with all the other entrance requirements. There are no minimum performance standards.

I think the "All-American" classification is a target for athletes to work toward. It certainly can be motivational goal for many athletes, especially those that are new to masters athletics. I do not know how they are established, but perhaps an email to the Masters National News organization nminfo@nationalmastersnews.com would result in an answer.

For those that are interested, you can compare the All American standards with the US performance rankings or World performance rankings with the data at the sites listed below.

- master

All American standards
Womens standards
Mens standards

US Rankings
http://www.mastersrankings.com/

World Rankings
http://www.mastersathletics.net/



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