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Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:59 am

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Junior Masters Athlete
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A couple of questions. Anybody have experience with these "joint juices"?
Do they work? Is there any medical studies been conducted and the results published? My physical therapist said they were unproven and not of real value medical wise. I just got over knee surgery and have arthritis in both knees and would like to know if they would help some of the stiffness.

Second topic. 1k discus. I just turned 59 and will move up to the next great middle age group next year. Thought I would take advantage of the year end clearances and sales by the T&F companies and buy a few 1ks for training. The 1.5K was pretty simple since there were only limited makers.
But the 1K, everybody and their brother has them and so many brands. How about you 1K throwers, brand name? Center weighted or not? Rim weight (intermediate distance)? Training versus competition discus?

Mike Thomason
M-59 Thrower



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Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:59 pm

 
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Master Masters Athlete
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Hi, Mike

Joint juices are just the old reliable glucosamine/chondroitin (and sometimes MSM) pills made into something U can drink.

I tried an orange soda mixture once. I got tired of it, and went back to the horse pills. (I take three a day.)

Without glucosamine/chondroitin, my knees would be toast.

My son the college student took a sports nutrition class last year and said his teacher said studies find these joint supplements OK for knees but not proven for other joints.

If your knees hurt, I highly recommend 'em -- in whatever form you like.

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Ken Stone
http://www.masterstrack.com



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Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:48 pm

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Sawitzke, et al. “The Effect of Glucosamine and/or Chondroitin Sulfate on the Progression of Knee Osteoarthritis” Arthritis & Rheumatism 58:3183–3191, October 2008

Objective. Osteoarthritis (OA) of the knee causes significant morbidity and current medical treatment is limited to symptom relief, while therapies able to slow structural damage remain elusive. This study was undertaken to evaluate the effect of glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate (CS), alone or in combination, as well as celecoxib and placebo on progressive loss of joint space width (JSW) in patients with knee OA. Methods. A 24-month, double-blind, placebo controlled study, conducted at 9 sites in the United States as part of the Glucosamine/Chondroitin Arthritis Intervention Trial (GAIT), enrolled 572 patients with knee OA who satisfied radiographic criteria (Kellgren/ Lawrence [K/L] grade 2 or grade 3 changes and JSW of at least 2 mm at baseline). Patients with primarily lateral compartment narrowing at any time point were excluded. Patients who had been randomized to 1 of the 5 groups in the GAIT continued to receive glucosamine 500 mg 3 times daily, CS 400 mg 3 times daily, the combination of glucosamine and CS, celecoxib 200 mg daily, or placebo over 24 months. The minimum medial tibiofemoral JSW was measured at baseline, 12 months, and 24 months. The primary outcome measure was the mean change in JSW from baseline. Results. The mean JSW loss at 2 years in knees with OA in the placebo group, adjusted for design and clinical factors, was 0.166 mm. No statistically significant difference in mean JSW loss was observed in any treatment group compared with the placebo group. Treatment effects on K/L grade 2 knees, but not on K/L grade 3 knees, showed a trend toward improvement relative to the placebo group. The power of the study was diminished by the limited sample size, variance of JSW measurement, and a smaller than expected loss in JSW. Conclusion. At 2 years, no treatment achieved a predefined threshold of clinically important difference in JSW loss as compared with placebo. However, knees with K/L grade 2 radiographic OA appeared to have the greatest potential for modification by these treatments.



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Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:33 pm

 
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Master Masters Athlete
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Location: Gulf Breeze, FL

Not sure why they studied celecoxib with Glucosamine and/or Chondroitin Sulfate. My understanding is that celecoxib is an NSAID and used for inflammation and pain while the others are supplements used to help lubricate the joints.

Is there any conclusive data that Glucosamine and/or Chondroitin Sulfate is beneficial at all?

Thanks,

Tony



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Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:29 pm

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Master Masters Athlete
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From Fahey supplement research column in Muscular Development magazine from last year.

Small Effects of Glucosamine on Knee Rehabilitation
The knee is the most commonly injured joint in athletes. Highly motivated athletes will do anything to get back to the gym or playing field. Glucosamine enhances cartilage metabolism, so many athletes take the supplement to speed recovery from knee injuries. A Serbian study of 106 athletes recovering from knee injuries found that 1500 mg per day had no effect on recovery rate, swelling, or pain during rehabilitation but increased range of motion slightly. Other studies have not supported the effectiveness of glucosamine for improving joint pain. German researchers concluded that chondroitin does not decrease pain or improve mobility in people suffering from knee or hip arthritis. They pooled the results of 20 studies on chondroitin using a research technique called meta-analysis. The studies involved 3846 patients. Many of these people had severe arthritis, so chondroitin may help those with more mild forms of the disease. A previous meta-analysis, however, showed that the combination of glucosamine and chondroitin (JAMA 283: 1469-1475, 2007) reduced joint pain and improved joint health, so we have a lot to learn about the effectiveness of these supplements. Glucosamine-chondroitin supplement sales exceeded $1 billion last year, so a lot is riding on these studies.
(Research in Sports Medicine 15: 113-124, 2007; Annals Internal Medicine146: 580-590, 2007)

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Thomas Fahey
Dept Kinesiology
California State University, Chico
Chico, CA 95929-0330
discusdoc@aol.com



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Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:54 pm

 
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Thomas,

Thanks for the information. I read the abstracts of the research cited in your coorespondence and researched several more articles on Medline. The predominant conclusion about the efficacy of glucosamine or the combination of GH/CS for the knee seems to be unfavorable and more studies are warranted.

I did not find studies on the safety of Chondroitin Sulfate, glucosamine or the combination of the two. Do you know of any?

Thanks again,

Tony



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Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:18 pm

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I am not aware of any long term studies on the safety of these supplements, and this is troubling.

Here is an excerpt from an article on glucosamine by Stephen Barrett, M.D. (www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTop ... amine.html):
"Safety Considerations

No study so far has found any serious side effects from either glucosamine or chondroitin. The most common side effects are increased intestinal gas and softened stools. However, animal research has raised the possibility that glucosamine may worsen insulin resistance, a major cause of diabetes. So far, studies in humans have not substantiated that risk. Nevertheless, people with diabetes should monitor their blood-sugar level particularly carefully when using that supplement. There have been no reports of allergic reactions to glucosamine. But because it is made from shellfish shells, people who are allergic to seafood should use it cautiously, watching for reactions, or avoid it entirely. As for chondroitin, it can cause bleeding in people who have a bleeding disorder or take a blood-thinning drug.

In 2001, Vital Nutrients recalled two products (Vital Nutrients Joint Ease and Verified Quality Joint Comfort) that had been found to contain aristolochic acid, a substance that can cause kidney toxicity and cancer [7].

In 2008, a Scottish newspaper reported that people had died of liver failure within weeks of taking glucosamine [8]. Although cause-and-effect cannot be proven, local physicians issued a warning."



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Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:46 pm

 
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Master Masters Athlete
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:53 pm
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Location: Gulf Breeze, FL

Thomas,

Thanks again for the info. Great article from link on quackwatch. I signed up for their newsletter.

I think I will bypass taking the glucosamine and/or chondroitin for now.

Now, what are your thoughts on L-glutamine?

Tony



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Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:06 am

 
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Junior Masters Athlete
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:53 am
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Location: Callahan Florida

Knee osteoarthritis stopped me from running for nearly two years. I gave up and started cycling, which I never enjoyed. While reading about knee arthritis and searching for a miracle cure that would allow me to run again, I stumbled across an article about pine bark extract. I've been taking Pycnogenol for two months and my pain is almost completely gone. I'm able to jog again and I feel like the knee is getting better every week. It's amazing stuff.



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