The USATF masters outdoor nationals are earlier than usual this year — July 11-14. That’s to accommodate those who want to compete a few weeks later in Cleveland area for the National Senior Games. But with Kansas heat as it is (and I vividly recall from KU days), organizers apparently are tweaking the usual schedule. All distance races will not be on the same day, for example. See the rough schedule here. Several people have written me about the sked, curious about the changes. I’ll write the organizers to confirm the reasons. Here’s what one mole wrote: “The 10,000 finals will be on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday — all four days of the meet. The 5,000 racewalk will be on Thursday and Friday. The 5,000 run will be contested on Thursday, Saturday and Sunday. The 1500 finals will be on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.”
Mole No. 113 continues:
The 800 will be run as a final only. Gone are those 800 trials that forced people to come out Wednesday for a Thursday preliminary, only to find in many (most?) cases that the 800 had rolled to a final on Saturday. The 800 finals will be on Thursday and Saturday.
Like or dislike?
Discuss.
38 Responses
Very interesting, Ken. I like the fact that we are seeing innovation in the schedule. Now, some might disagree with the changes, but at least we are seeing some.
As for the removal of the 800 trials, I say “good riddance.” Back in the day, if you recall, we actually had a trial in the 1500. Now, that was even a bigger waste of time. In masters we just have too much of a spread from bottom to top to merit so many trials.
Here is my next candidate for removing the trials: the intermediate hurdles. Do we really need trials so that the star or superstar at the top can eliminate one or two people perhaps 20-25 seconds slower?
And don’t forget, Ken, most masters in the age groups that have trials actually work for a living. How many 800 runners over the years stopped working on Wednesday morning, flew to the meet, checked in on Thursday, only to find out that their 800 trial had rolled over and that the final was on Saturday? And how many did not enter the meet at all because of this requirement for Thursday preliminaries?
This is a very disappointing schedule for me.
At W 75 middle distance my events will be on Saturday and Sunday – but that means that IF I want to run the 800 and the 5k – have to do that on Saturday – and the 1500 the next day. That I would not attempt to do, bad enough to knock myself out running a 5k on the heat of a track without then attempting to run an 800 as well. Perhaps there are those who run just to run – regardless of the results – but I am not one of those. I run to try to get a good result – not a just doing it result.
At my age – having a day of rest (minimum) between the 5k and the 1500 is essential. -it will be extremely difficult to run 5k on Saturday and the 1500 on Sunday. I see this is the schedule for all the women and the men 70+ -wow – not nice at all.
This is a very unfriendly schedule for women who run the 5k and 1500 (a very common combination) and the older men who do the same.
If this is the final schedule – I am very likely to stay home. And I hope this will not be a pattern set for future National Masters Outdoor Meets. It is not at all friendly for middle distance athletes.
Well, Mary, I guess the devil is in the details. Agree that the 5000 (which used to be on Thursday) and the 1500 (used to be on Sunday) made for a natural combination. Running them on consecutive days seems like a dicey proposition.
I wonder what our male 800/1500 runners in the M30, 35, 40, 45, 60, and 65 divisions think about the dramatically new schedule. You will not be bothered by the threat of an 800 trial on Thursday, thank goodness. However, you will run your FINAL in the 800 on Thursday and then come back the next day for your 1500 final. If that is all you are doing, your meet is over.
In the old days you could have run a trial on Thursday (or not), a final in the 800 on Saturday, and a final in the 1500 on Sunday. Sounds like your world has been completely changed.
Would love to hear from someone like Nolan Shaheed (M60) about the new schedule.
It appears that they will run the 400 and 800 finals on the same day, possibly back-to-back. It was my intent to run both (as some did at Indoor Nationals, but that’s a tough double on the same day. I’m new to the 800…has the final always been run on the same day as the 400?
it solves the problem of the 800 prelims – great – and creates a bunch of new problems – 400/800 is a natural combination – as is 1500/5k – but apparently the scheduler thinks that masters can just run this stuff back to back – or more or less back to back. This is not a local or regional meet held on one or two days where there are lots of back-to-back races and one should expect to double – or just run fewer events. This is a 4 day meet – and some attention should be paid to how events are placed – and the need for recovery between events.
Look at the schedule for last year’s outdoor meet – to see the changes – in my opinion – aside from doing away with the prelims for the 800 – what else was broken that such a drastic change is needed?
Ed Winslow, as a quasi-historian of the masters program I will venture a guess that we have never run the 400 and 800 finals on the same day, as many people like to do both. Let me check the schedule again.
No, you will be running the 800 final on Thursday as well as the 400 TRIALS on that day. You will be running the 400 finals (which I am sure you will make) on Friday. I am assuming that they will go with the 800 final before the 400 trial.
After running the 800 in 2:01.50 or so (or do you plan to run faster?) you could jog through a 400 in about 53.80 and still make the final. The reverse would be tough.
BTW, I told someone I would apologize to you. At Landover I announced somewhere around 190 races, but I missed 1 (as in ONE). That would have been your 800. I sneaked off for a pit stop, but they were so efficient that you were about 740 meters through your race when I got back (and I hurried, believe me). So …. my apologies.
Sometimes change is good. I think the schedule need be advised for both Outdoor and Indoor Championships, especially when it comes to running the sprint events. For example, not all sprinters prefer to run in the early a.m. Having a fixed repeatitive schedule get old.
Hey Peter. I have always enjoyed running the 400 after the 800 and have avoided the double in the past because the 400 prelim and/or final has always been before the 800 final. I attempted the double in Maine several years back and definitely felt that the the 800 and 400 prelim on Thursday and 400 final on Friday took a lot out of my legs for the 800 final on Saturday (at 54, 2:08.94 got me 5th place. Back in my youthful days, it was not uncommon at Texas A&M for me to run the 880 then the mile relay only, on the same day at smaller meets or even the 2 mile relay final and the sprint medley relay prelims and mile relay prelims all on the same day at big meets. Of course our squads were big enough for us to run some fresh teams in the finals. When I doubled, which was most of the time, it was rare for me to run the 440 before the 880 running on or off a relay. Of course back then my youthful legs could take a lot more. I missed the indoor nationals because of an unexpected work change, but I look forward to running in Olathe. Maybe I will try the 800/400 double this year. At M60 and to run an 800 final with no prelim and a 400 prelim afterwards on the same day, with the 400 final the next day, sounds good to me. 🙂
Thanks, Horace, for your perspective. We have a number of other competitors who are good at both the 800 and 400, and it would be good to get their viewpoints on the dramatic change we will be seeing for Olathe.
You were missed in Landover, Horace.
Thanks for the correction Pete. You are right, while the 400 would come directly after the 800, it would be a prelim. This is still a tiring double when you’d have to come back the next day for the final (assuming one made the final). This is not ideal, but I guess you can’t cater to everyone’s needs and wants. One can still hope however, that they will reconsider the schedule.
As for your apology, one is certainly not required. You are the MVP of every meet you work. I can’t imagine a National meet without you.
Stay well.
Although I race lots of distances, I consider myself a middle distance runner. People who know me, know that I run multiple races at these meets. In the past for outdoors, this meant a 5000 final on Thursday morning and an 800 prelim that afternoon. After a day of rest, I would run the 800 final on Saturday and then come back with the 1500 on Sunday. This is not possible now that the 800 final is the same day as the 5000 (for M55s). This could actually be a good thing for me because it would force me to focus on the 1500 (as I should) and maybe do EITHER the 5000 or 800 depending on how my training has prepared me. But for M55s who are distance runners the 5000 on Thursday is followed by the 10,000 the next day instead of Saturday. The 5/10 double is not unusual when there is a full day between. The new schedule is going to make that double very difficult for M55s. Again, this could be good because it would force the decision to run one or the other. I have maintained that I run for the win at Nationals and not for time (I go for faster times at college meets or other meets where I can experiment with pacing, leading, following etc). Maybe this schedule change will help to change that attitude to: focusing on fewer events, running to win, AND going for a fast time because it is the only race that you will be running.
Anyway, my ramblings…
Thank you, Steve. My cursory look at the new schedule did not reveal its protean implications. As I recall, nationals have not been in Kansas since 1982 (Wichita), and now we have a new schedule that changes things dramatically.
Surprisingly, there doesn’t seem to be an entry form for the meet, even though regular entry will close in June. I’m also interested in the housing situation, as my brief examination of the hotels seemed to indicate they were rather far from the venue.
Oh, well, I guess we will learn a lot more about this new location and the implications of a dramatically different schedule in the weeks to come. When, for example, will the first race be each day? For those in the hotels, will there be an easy shuttle to the stadium?
I like it! Bottom line: The long distance races need to be run before it gets too hot. The last time I competed at outdoor nationals, in Spokane, 5 of the 10 registered in the M55 10,000 blew off the race, and three of the remaining 5 dropped out, one with serious heat problems. I would expect it will be hot anyway, but the odds are better if these races are run earlier than later.
For me (m60), it means a 5000 on Saturday morning and a 10,000 on Sunday morning, rather than the Thursday/Saturday. I would like the rest day if the host city was a bit more exciting, but I expect that will not be the case this year. Might even consider doing the 1500 on Friday because of this change.
Reminds me, Peter, you asked me at National Indoors to get you a document from the clerk. She wouldn’t provide it to me, and for whatever reason, I couldn’t find you before my ride was leaving. Sorry.
Hey great move with the 800. Nobody has talked about the bigges problem…How the heck can I afford to go to Kansas and also…this is right in the middle of my vacation in Costa Rica…well….whaddya going to do…
After I wrote that I thought. Costa Rica…people are going to think I’m a crackpot..well, my wife is from there so we don’t pay for much but the airfare…probably would cost twice as much to go to Kansas, ironically…..anyway, If Ed Winslow is going to jog through a 2:01 anyway…I’m toast — good luck…
Gary, I don’t even remember asking you for a document in Landover. Unless you thought the clerk was supposed to give me a $100 bill, don’t even worry about it.
We are now going around the final turn for Olathe before entering the homestretch, but I still haven’t seen the schedule. For you, Gary, I would think the big question would be: At exactly what time will these 10,000 and 5,000 runs be going off? 7:30 AM? 7:00 AM? Surely not 6:30 AM.
A related question to ask yourself amight be: How long will it take me to get from my hotel to the track? With opening day of the meet just 3 months and 7 days away, I hope these issues will be resolved quickly. Otherwise, how can those affected by the huge schedule changes even enter the meet?
I meant Gary Grobman, of course, not the Gary just above.
And I meant an indication of approximately when things will go off (we do have a skeleton schedule). Will races start early in the morning (God forbid)? Will there be a siesta/heat break in the middle of the day? Will the meet take advantage of the presumably cooler evenings by holding some races, jumps, and throws during that more pleasant time period?
Not to be pushing things unnecessarily, but Ken Stone told us about the meet in 2010 and I still don’t have the foggiest idea, here in April 2013, of how the meet will be set up in terms of general time frames. Not a problem for Oshkosh (2009) or Eugene, but we are talking about a place where 100 degrees is absolutely commonplace.
Thanks, I got scared about running the 5,000 or 10,000 meters…Ouch! I’ll stick with the 400/800
🙂
The M50 800/1500 is Thursday/Saturday so I have no complaints. Why doesn’t USATF ever schedule night races for outdoor Nationals? I don’t know if Olathe has lights, but that is something they could look into for future meets. Distance runners would like it.
I agree about distance night races. The USATF Open Nationals do all the distance races at night. Why not the masters?
Random thoughts:
* Do all masters national track and field championships burn their schedule files? Is that why each year athletes are left in the dark as to where the meet will be held (the National Senior Games is notorious for moving the track meet to different cities after they have been announced) and are left in the dark by meet directors refusing to release a meet schedule until shortly before the starting gun goes off? After upteen years of running national masters USATF meets, isn’t it time to settle on a standard event schedule? Perspiring minds want to know.
* Does USATF still not care about masters T&F? Check out the USATF webpage for National Masters T&F Championships:
http://www.usatfmasters.org/cal_bigmeets.htm
There is no active link to the Olathe meet (or the 2013 USATF Masters Throws Championships, for that matter). Seems odd that USATF would link to the 2013 National Senior Games, but not its own outdoor championships.
* Glad they are not running quarters and semis of the 400m Hurdles ON THE SAME DAY, as they did at WAVA-Buffalo in 1995 (and on the hottest day of the year in Buffalo!)
i realized they were running the 5k and 10k on consecutive days and decided not to go to kansas. it is a long way to go to run one race with half the regular competition or less.i guess if you want to spread the national championships out, this is a good way to do it…
Entry form is now up at the USATF website. Regular deadline will be June 13. We have 1 entrant at this point; anything below 1100 at the end I would consider disappointing. Still do not have any feeling for what use, if any, will be made of the evening hours.
I e-mailed the appropriate person in Olathe about lights at the stadium, but that person did not reply. Oh, well.
Hi Everybody,
The track has lights.
It it here: Use google maps
20925 W 159th St, Olathe, KS
Gary Snyder
National Chair
USATF Masters T&F
@Brian–sorry to hear that running these two races on consecutive days was the deciding factor for you. Ideally, one should have a rest day between two long distance races. Doesn’t bother me, as I often do several long distance races in a weekend, and am delighted not to spend a “waste” day in Kansas–although I would be happy to do that in a city with something to do for fun.
@Peter–I wouldn’t have even thought of mentioning this, although with your photographic memory, I had visions of competing in nationals in 2040, and you would be announcing: “In lane four is Gary Grobman, who still hasn’t given me that list of starters from the 2013 Indoor Nationals that I asked him for…” 🙂
As for the starting time, as long as I have some transportation, I am happy to start at 6:30 a.m., when it might only be 95 degrees rather than 105 if the gun goes off at 10 am. This would certainly not be good for you or the officials, though, for obvious reasons, and perhaps this is why night races won’t happen even though they would be good for the athletes.Just too long a day for the volunteers.
What’s all the talk about nothing fun to do on a rest day at outdoor nationals? Olathe is at most a 30 minute drive from downtown KC – jazz, barbeque, Nelson Atkins Gallery, Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, Truman Library, etc. Check it out
http://www.visitkc.com/things-to-do/index.aspx
You might have fun.
This ODEC is great track that was used for the 2003 NAIA Collegiate Nationals. For those interested in hotels. There are a few within approx. 2 miles of the track. There are several pyhers within 5-10 miles from the track in Olathe and in neighboring city Overland Park You will be only 20-25 minutes away from many KC attractions.
I meant to say several other hotels are in the immediate area.
@ Gary G. (no. 26): Longest 2 weeks I ever spent? Charlotte, NC, in 2006. Oh, it was really a 4-day meet? Getting up extremely early, doing the morning session, coming back about 6 PM. Doing the evening session, and then trying to find a place to eat between 10 PM and midnight.
That went on for 2 days. Plus, the booth I occupied was not air conditioned. Oh, well.
Baton Rouge (2001) was also very tough. That one had 2-a-days that were actually intended. I remember trudging to the Subway shop off the campus at some point around 10:40 PM. Then get up at some ungodly hour for the morning session the next day. Cafeterias were not open, and thus I had to go (on foot) to some eatery off campus for both breakfast and dinner.
All of this is prelude to why it is indeed tough for officials if there are night events. I do not know whether there will be any in Olathe, as the schedule does not signal that one way or the other.
@ “Pilch” (no. 23): You’re a nice runner with a distinctive style, very easy to recognize from a distance. Too bad you won’t be at the big meet.
@Peter–I spent a day with you at the track at Spokane nationals in 2008, and came away with an appreciation of what you and other volunteers deal with every year. Because of your visibility and extraordinary competence, you are one of the few of these folks who are a “sung” hero.
Your post reminded me that my introduction to competing in nationals came in 2007 (Orono) after I had examined the results in Charlotte online, and reached the conclusion that I would have been competitive there. It was months later when I discovered that performance times were substantially lower because the races were run in hundred degree temperatures–and that might have been 100 Centigrade rather than Fahrenheit! Even in Spokane, I think I remember athletes fighting each other to squeeze into the hotel sauna, because it was the only place around one could stay relatively cool…
@Bill–Kansas City MIGHT be fun, assuming one has a car to get there. Not sure if I will have one, though. Major cities tend to have reasonable public transit systems. I’ll take a look at how I might get from Olathe to KC via bus, in the event I end up not renting a car.Putting that aside, I think my wife will be more likely to accompany me to Cleveland for the Senior Games than Olathe. And this year, the State Games of America are being held in Hershey, just down the road from me in Harrisburg, PA. Might be worth considering for those with young kids and grandkids, as Hershey Park is nearby.
I apologize for posting still again on this topic, but I am missing the key point. If I could still compete (800 was my best race) I would want to know the answer to the central question: How is Olathe going to be handled?
A. Start each day with the 10,000 as the first track event, then keep on going without a break until the schedule for the day has been completed.
B. Start with the 10,000 on the track, continue until about noon, then resume the festivities at night.
C. Start with the 10,000 on the track, go to 4 PM or so, take a break of 3 hrs, then finish the meet under the lights, going to 9:30 or so.
If anyone knows which of these three approaches (or a fourth one) will be followed in Olathe, please tell us.
Pete there is a second alternative. Have a second announcer cover part of the schedule.
Thank you, Robert. Well, entries seem to be coming in nicely, and the meet could be a success. Appreciate your support for Bloomington last year.
PT
Given that this schedule is very unfriendly for the women middle distance runners – 5k/800 same day, 1500 next day – I will be staying home. I do not go to national meets to just show up – I go to try to perform as well as I can. In years past I use to “double”ie run a 5k and a mile at a one day masters track meet – but I can no longer do that – and my body requires a bit of rest if I am to run a decent 1500 after running a 5k. Never mind the heat – who knows how that will be in Kansas – it is about the spacing of the middle distance events. I hope this is NOT a pattern to be used again, Some consideration should be given to the concerns of the participants – of all the events – not just one subset – or age group – or gender.
Thanks for that, Mary. I tried to comment yesterday, but I believe there was a technical glitch. Anyway, the big questions for me are the following:
1. Is this dramatically different running schedule “permanent”?
2. Or is it a new schedule for “hot-weather sites” only, i.e., Winston-Salem next year and Jacksonville in 2015?
3. Is there any recourse for people who feel they are being harmed by this schedule? I’m sure there won’t be any this year, but will people going to Winston-Salem in 2014 have a chance to protest, if that is their inclination?
Well you can’t please everybody. 400/800 is a double, 800/1500 is a double, 1500/5K, 5K/10K…I like the change. I’d mix it up sensibly from year to year and give people a chance to focus on different events.
Bill, you must be lost, this is the annual “Complain about the Nationals schedule” message board it’s sort of like a high school reunion where people can catch up with each other since the last time they complained about….well you get the idea. Anyway, this year I see a lot of familiar faces missing…..interesting. Next year i hear that in order to post, distinguished alumni members will have to upload a copy of their proposed schedule that WILL please everybody, COMPLETE, every event, every age group, both genders. That should be educational.
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