M55 world record in 4×4 again falls at Penn — but will it be ignored?
They ran in the shade. They ran in the sun. They traded leads. They drew some of Friday’s loudest cheers at the Penn Relays. In the end, the M50 Sprint Force America quartet beat the M55 foursome of Houston Elite in the 4×400. But Houston came away with a bigger prize: the M55 world record. Will their latest WR be clouded by WMA refusal to ratify its time? In one of the most spectacular 4×4 races in masters history, the M50 team of James Chinn, Ben James, Archie Glasby and Sal Allah clocked 3:38.83 to outleg the 3:40.62 of Charles Allie, George Haywood, Bill Collins and Horace Grant. The listed WR for M55 is 3:43.59 by Great Britain at 2007 Riccione worlds. But it should have been 3:41.07, which Houston Elite ran last year (with the same team) at Penn. That 3:41.07 is well-documented. In fact, it stands as the listed USATF M50-59 club record. So why not the world record? Here’s the Penn 4×4:
Today’s email brought a note from Houston Elite’s George Haywood, who shared a copy of an email he sent to a friend.
The note expresses the frustration many have felt for years over the records process. (See my own rant on Penn Relays records.)
George writes about Friday’s 4×4:
The team that finished first, Sprint Force, averaged 52 yrs old, whereas we average 59. They were loaded, with Chinn and James (first and second leg) having finished #2 and #4 in the 400 for men 50 at the world championships last month in Canada. Archie Glaspy (their third leg) was silver medalist in the 400 for M55 (beating me by .45) in Canada. Their anchor was the legendary Sal Allah, running his first race as a 50 yr old. He is the world record holder in M45 for the 800 with an other-worldly 1:54.18. He also ran a 50.9 three years ago in the 400. So we knew we were the underdogs.
It was a great race, with lead changes on every leg, and everyone running pretty much true to form. Ben James passed me with a strong finish on our leg. I split 56.9, which I wasn’t ecstatic with since it was 1.2 secs slower than I split last year, but my teammates ran so spectacularly (especially Bill Collins, who split 53.45) that we broke the world record we set last year at Penn of 3:41.07.
This world record business is a very touchy subject in masters track these days, especially with us Houston Elite guys. A very disliked official at USA Masters makes seemingly nonsensical decisions on ratifying marks for world records. The listed WR for M55 4Ă—400 is still 3:43.59 by the Brits which they set at worlds in Italy three years ago.
Houston Elite has now lowered that mark three times since it was set, counting our 3:40.62 this year. But the Brits are still listed as world record holders. However, we are credited as American club record holders in M50-59 division with our 3:41.07 which we ran last year at Penn.
We struggle to understand how the mark could be accepted for one purpose, but not as a WR, since we were all over 55 when we ran it. We also wonder why records set at the Penn Relays need to go through a prolonged vetting process by the masters administrators. Do they think the Penn Relays folks don’t measure their track correctly? Or that their timing system is flawed? Or that the video of the race is faked?
If Usain Bolt sets a world record when he runs at the Penn Relays today, will he be required to submit extensive paperwork and hold his breath for a year or so to see if he gets credit for a WR? I doubt it. For guys who train as hard as we do at our age to not get credit for the marks we worked hard for is truly galling.
All that aside, it was still a great pleasure to run at the Penn Relays with my teammates, who are the best guys in the world. Great weather, a knowledgeable and enthusiastic crowd, and great competition. And all props to Sprint Force, who are our friends as well as competitors, and who ran one hell of a race.
Sandy Pashkin — the unnamed “very disliked official at USA Masters” — also serves as both chairman and records manager of the Records Committee in World Masters Athletics. She has a responsibility to answer these questions. I’ve raised similar questions and even led a petition drive. And even though USATF Masters T&F Chairman Gary Snyder has promised change, the status quo remains.
What will it take for justice to happen?
Masters Men’s 4×400 50 and older
Event 153 Friday 4:30 PM
Results
PL School/Affiliation Mark Athletes ID
1 Sprint Force America 3:38.83 James Chinn, Ben James, Archie Glasby, Sal Allah B
2 Houston Elite TC 3:40.62 Charles Allie, George Haywood, Bill Collins, Horace Grant A
3 Mass Velocity TC A 3:55.41 Greg McBride, Charles Kelley, Tom Gillen, Dave Neumann D
4 Mass Velocity TC C 3:58.60 Rudy Briscoe, Craig Davis, Jeff Elliot, Tucker Taff G
5 Greater Philadelphia TC 4:04.95 Chuck Shields, Jim Anderson, Mark Carver, Patrick Detscher Q
6 Shore AC 4:16.26 Bob Andrews, Chris Harkins, Harry Nolan, Rick Lapp E
7 TNT International Racing Club 4:17.77 Gary Leigh, Ross Donolow, Gary Fanelli, Leo Sanders L
8 Philadelphia Masters A 4:18.82 Dan Fannon, Dave Lapreziosa, Jack Comiskey, Russ Comesey H
9 Mass Velocity TC B 4:22.59 Less Hess, Steve Snow, Ralph Souppa, Jesse Langley F
10 Philadelphia Masters B 4:33.96 Mick Donnelly, Joe Rogan, Daniel Lawton, Gary Grossman J
11 DC Capitol TC 4:35.80 Joe Burho, Doug Hawkland, Tom Wang, Collin Mitchell I
12 Team Ohio 60+ 4:37.10 Lloyd Hathcock, Tom Johnson, Norman Thomas, Allen Huff N
13 Garden State AC 60+ 4:43.01 Joe Horick, Glen Schmehl, Ralph Fusco, Paul Henry M
14 Shore AC 60+ 5:08.04 Dave Zurheido, Dave Friedman, John Kuhi, Walt MacGowen O
Sheepshead Bay Alumni TC DNF Derek Powers, James Shipley, Fredrick Applewhite, George Corbin II K
27 Responses
Great video, guys. A question. Isn’t it usual for a 4×4 to be run with the first leg in lanes, and second athlete breaking to the inside on his lap? This race seems to have been run the whole way in one lane. Also had many more teams in one race than would be usual in, say, a WMA meet. Do the IAAF have rules about things like that?
So what’s the hold up on the WR? Because it was a mixed race? Because they were “rabbited” by younger runners?
“Most spectacular races in masters’ history” When you get the chance, check out the results of the 2006 Penn Relays 4×400 (40+)with some of the same runners. You might want to borrow a copy of James Chinn dvd of that race.
Reply to Tom:
Penn has a weird track configuration, so folks stay in their lanes way past the first handoff. History of the meet explains some of the issues in the track:
http://www.thepennrelays.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=1720&ATCLID=1403812
Hello all,
It was a pleasure to be part of Penn Relays Masters racing again !
Masters officials ! I say to all of you, “Please make decisions that are true and obvious. I know you mean well..Show us”. Give the 55’s & over there ratification ! They are truly deserving and have shown there prowess many times.
It truly took total strategy & teamwork to defeat them. You all make me feel good to be fifty. It was an all out effort for me to participate and finish this race…The ending of it was painful for both Bill and I, but I wouldn’t trade it for nothin’ !
All of you are awesome, man !
Saladin ( Sal)
…Also, I apologize to my teammates. The 40+ team did not get a chance to run the 4×400. For three teammates this was the 2nd yr in a row this happened . This was unacceptable for me today. I’ll just say, people who leave themselves available as reserves must be just that !
I’ll blame myself…I guess, no matter the condition, I should have lined up on the track anyway !
Again, my apologies Corey, Paul, and James.
Sal
It was a pleasure to see the video, to see the “battle” between M50 and M55 (and I can only imagine the pleasure of the spectators – also to see the 4×100 with Bolt).
@Jimson Lee, you are the specialist: What can you say about the split times. Was Charles Allie running about 54” (WR M60 Ralph Romain 53.88)?
PS. Concerning the record: They (the M50 and M55) “rabbited” the younger runners…LOL
And in my own lists the record 4×400 M55 is now 3:40.62
What about Sandy Pashkin, the WMA’s Chairman and “Records Manager” according to the official web-site?
Or is this another mistake on the WMA site?
It’s incredible the amounts of errors present in their lists.
Perhaps, if you do not have time to follow your work, you should leave your chair…
Sandy Pashkin serves at the pleasure of WMA President Stan Perkins. Her position is not elective. She can be removed at any time.
If you feel strongly about this issue, write to Stan at stanleyperkins@bigpond.com
Note that last year’s world record race indeed had women and had some teams that were M50 (Houston was all M55 last year). But I note that in 2008 a W40 team ran with the men at Penn (M50 or older) and got credit for a world mark (3:56.27). This speaks volumes to me. Note also that this year’s race was all male.
The point about being “rabbited” by younger men I at first thought was facetious, but now I am considering it seriously. But I do know that in 2008 the men “rabbited” the women, and the women got a world mark. Could there possibly be a rule that a world mark in a relay can’t be set when there are younger teams? This seems unlikely, because in the longer individual races we often see several age groups running together, and this does not seem to have been a bar to acceptance of records.
In terms of certification by the referees at the Penn Relays, there are 4 referees and 1 carnival referee (Dr. Leroy Walker). Herman Frazier, yes, that Herman Frazier (Olympic gold medalist), serves as the masters referee at Penn. If you want him to sign a record application, please do not hand him a blank sheet. I know from experience he will not sign it — he wants to see evidence. In short, he takes the masters seriously and will not simply rubber-stamp something.
Last year, Herman Frazier signed off on Houston Elite’s 3:41.07, and a Penn Relays official (not an athlete) obtained the finish photo and the signatures of the chief of FAT at Penn and the starter. Even so, the record was not accepted as a world mark.
Regarding the responsibility of the masters athlete to get the paperwork: I can guarantee you that no record-setting masters athlete in 2010 got even close to the FAT area at Penn (off limits to all athletes and to spectators who are not sitting in that section of that stadium). Thus, no athlete could get either (a) a photo or (b) the signature of the chief of FAT. As was the case last year, one of the Penn Relays officials did all of the processing of the records, including obtaining the signature of the masters referee, Herman Frazier.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
I rabbitt’d the 60-69 men to an American record in the 4 x 800 in 2005. More then rabitting, actually pacing. 2 seconds or so shy of the WR
I enjoyed the video. Amazing time for both teams! Let’s hope the WMA gets it right.
I was proud of all of you guys for competing with such passion. I can’t wait to get back out there and be a part of it all. Sal, very courageous my brother. Maybe the officials should be notified well in advance for world record attempts.
Hey guys,Re Penn 4×4 records. As I understand relay records they are 10 year age groups. There is no 55-59 age relay mark. I have never seen 5 year relay marks. Only for individual events. JK
John, go to usatf.org. All of the world marks for men in the 4 x 400 are for 5-year age groups. There are no 10-year world marks for the 4 x 400 relay. The marks go from M35 and continue right through M85 without missing a group.
Congrats to Sal,Ben,James and Archie. You guys were awesome and are true champions! Sal, I was running with a perforated ear drum but still hear the roar of the crowd on your fantastic anchor leg! I look forward to seeing your 800’s again.
I just finished watching this video – for the 5th time. I’m 52 , and trying to find my old stride. Thank you , gentlemen , for that incredible gift of inspiration.
Great Race guys and Congratulations!!! I bet most of you didn’t realize that Sal ran injured as well, and still was able to set a World record!!! That’s true guts and must be admired and appreciated!!! Great job Sal you are class and elegance personified!!!
Great race by SFA and HE. Watch the fantastic finish by Charles Allie on the first leg. The Flotrack commentators were impressed by these 50+ guys but I bet they didn’t know Charles is 62(and passing a great runner at 51-James Chinn). Congrats to all who ran at Penn(and Drake).
Just to respond about Charles Allie : Simply incredible !
As I told he and Bill: They continue to motivate me through there determination to continue to run and excel at it….Great athletes !
Horace, I look forward to your next 800 also, brother..Don’t forget…take time off,and ice,ice, message, message that achilles. I battled through it twice. Both legs……and defeated it with no reoccurance, luckily.
first off …congratulations to all, especially the m55 guys.the video is fantastic ! it was my understanding that in masterstrack, competitors are allowed to “run down ” that is, compete in the younger groups if they choose. eg : a M50 ( 100m 36″ barrier) hurdler opting to run against the M45 ( 110m 39 ” barrier) many years ago, it happened to me at the state championship level. i’m not sure about the national level and international level. i’m just bringing it up to add any help if needed for a ratification of a record. based on previous posts it seems that some blatant , deserving records, have been “put aside ” for trivial reasons. hopefully this one won’t get away !
Al C: Glad to get your comments on this issue. And to George Haywood, one of the “Fab Four,” I will say this: (a) First, I consider you to be a member of the greatest masters relay team in the history of the sport (unless I can think of another one). As you point out, your team had an average age of 59 years, and your average leg was 55.155 seconds. Almost beyond belief, but we have scads of evidence that it happened.
(b) Second, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. (c) Third, I sincerely hope that this world mark of yours will be accepted by the time the Penn Relays comes around again in April 2011. If not, I am hoping you will be able to break the mark again at next year’s Relays. You will not have to match what you did this year, of course — all you will have to do is break 3:43.59 (the listed mark).
Naturally, this presumes that the 3:43.59 will not be broken by someone else in the interim. I do not like all of this (as I have said on many occasions), but it’s the way it is in masters T&F. For your sake and the sake of countless others, I hope that the process can be improved.
Great race and great athletes, but obviously not run
according to IAAF rules.
Annie, if you are still there, please give us a little more information. The only thing I can think of is that there might be an IAAF rule that the first leg in a 4 x 400 (or even the first leg plus the first turn for the second runner) should be run in lanes. This race was run with an inside and outside alley, with the the record-breaking team on the inside.
Interestingly, the most recent 4 x 400 team to gain world record status by running at the Penn Relays was a W40 squad (Roberts, Henderson, Brooker, and Miles-Clark) in 2008. That team of 4 women ran in a race that was predominantly male, had more teams than this year’s record-breaking race, was not run in lanes, etc. All of this made no difference in terms of acceptance by WMA. Please enlighten us if you can.
This race was so fantastic to watch! The commentators (on flotrack?) didn’t know much about the competitors at all, but I loved their comments about the men because they were genuinely excited watching the race. An opening 55 sec. 400m by a guy they thought was only 50 (and I think it was the 62 Charles Allie) prompted comments like “I don’t think *I* could run a 55 right now!) They were really impressed – and that anchor leg!! Those guys looks so smooth – you’d never know their age.
Anyway, I’m not a sprinter, but I thought the performances were really, really impressive and very fun to watch! Congratulations to all the guys! Wow!
An often ignored rule in the USATF Rulebook, Rule 139-3 reads:
Recorder of Records:For all athletic meets there shall be included in the list of officials a Recorder of Records. He/she shall see that records are properly applied for. He/she shall have at the site of the competition an adequate supply of record forms. He/she should have no other duties.
Thank you, Andy, for pointing out that rule. All I know is what seems to be the standard protocol for masters athletes at meets other than the national championships — do it yourself. If you fail to get everything you need (even at Penn Relays), you don’t get the mark. By the way, I have never seen nor heard of a Recorder of Records at Penn (at least in connection with masters).
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