Should Panamanians in USATF be denied mastersrankings.com?
Around the time mastersrankings.com got started, a policy was set: The site was open only to Americans who belong to USA Track & Field. No foreigners allowed. But occasionally non-U.S. citizens have gotten into the database — resulting in complaints to USATF Masters Rankings Committee chairman John Seto. Now comes a beef from a Panama national, a longtime resident of the United States and dues-paying member of USATF. This member, a resident of Houston, wrote me: “As a non-U.S. citizen living in the USA since the age of 12 and served in the Army 8 years, I’m prohibited from being listed on the Masters Ranking list per John Seto. I’ve been a member of (USATF) for 4 years and have paid my $30.00 each year. Who do you suggest that I could write that would look at that policy so that U.S. legal residents be included (in mastersrankings.com)? Other than ‘bragging’ for those who register, what’s the harm?â€
I haven’t gotten a definitive reply on the policy — whether it’s a closed book, not open to reconsideration.
So a poll for the heckuvit:
29 Responses
Oops, my bad. The original version of this blog and poll referred to Puerto Ricans. It should have said Panamanians, since the athlete who wrote me called himself “The Panama Kid.”
I’ve reset the poll to say Panama.
My apologies to those who commented before I realized the error.
As a member of USATF, is “The Panama Kid” eligible for medals at USATF championship meets? If so, then yes, he should be eligible for USATF rankings as well.
It’s actually a little confusing to me, though. Under what circumstances is a non-US citizen required to join USATF? Forgive me in advance for my lack of understanding of this subject.
I’ve got no problem with foreign nationals competing in US meets, and joining the USATF for what ever reasons, but any records they might set should not count as US records. Similarly, I think their performances should not count in US rankings.
I don’t think it’s necessary to be on the USA Masters Rankings, the list is for USA Track & Field members. If you don’t compete for the USA then you shouldn’t be on the USA listings, its confusing especially if you compete for your home country at International events. I myself compete in the US but in International Competitions I compete for my Country of Puerto Rico. Thats why they have World lists and then each country has there own Ranking Lists as well.
Legal residency and membership should be the only requirements for eligibility.
Hermano BORICUA:I do the same as you,However,They are meets that you need a USATF card OR THEY WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO COMPETE.Haber si nos vemos en los juegos NACA=Hopefully we see each other at NACAC Games
If you are a member of your national federation, in you case here:
http://www.gtp.gr/TDirectoryDetails.asp?id=50947
you do not have to join USATF to compete.
Gary Snyder
National Chair
USATF Masters T&F
So, it sounds like USATF membership is required to compete in certain USATF meets. That makes sense. Does that alone make an athlete eligible for medals at a USATF championship? It seems that no, it doesn’t. US citizenship is also needed.
I’m making some assumptions, but if I’m correct, then no, being a USATF member alone does not make one USATF masters rankings eligible.
Next question, how will this be enforced?
Senor Seto:If your on,Please amplify on my comments to Mr.Theologes:1.I can compete at all regional and National meets,However;at National meets,I cannot displace a U.S.Citizen from a medal(we both get one ).That will NOT HAPPEN at the National level because I’m not THAT VELOZ=FAST.Greg,If you look at the membership form it ask for COUNTRY OF CITIZENSHIP and PAPELES=papers(lol)
Based on Gary Snyder’s response, which I didn’t see until after I posted mine, you do not have to be a USATF member to compete in USATF meets, if you are a member of your own national association.
In that case; then no, you should not be included in USATF masters rankings, Panama Kid.
But to clarify, I’m not in any position of authority to make a decision regarding this. I’m just posting my own opinions.
Dude lives in the US, pays his dues in the US and is part of our motley little group. He can start at the US Championships as a member of a different country as said before. He can start as a USATF member as well even while being a citizen of a different country. Rank the Panama Kid but rank him with an asterisk. USATF did it for championships back when I was a member of USATF but started for Germany. Yes, that is possible, by the way. I was not the only athlete doing it. And yes, I find at least one Canadian ranked in the current list or at least he starts for Canada at world championships. I’m getting too long winded here. Rank the guys with an asterisk, all I wanted to say!
Gracias Stefan.Next time your in Houston(SENIORS NATIONALS-2011),look me up.We’ll HAVE some Panamanian “SECO” (MEXICAN TEQUILA)BEFORE THE MEET(lol)
He lives here, served in our military, and pays USATF dues. He should be allowed to join the rankings. We should try to be more inclusive.
As Stefan noted, if you look at the results from USATF Nationals, non US citizens are marked with an asterisk.
http://www.usatf.org/events/2010/USAMastersIndoorTFChampionships/results/saturday.asp
If they are resident here it makes sense to include them in rankings too with the asterisk.
Two points. First, the USATF card provides insurance, in the event of an injury at a USATF sanctioned event. Second; the solution is simple…become an AMERICAN citizen. Everything cited in the article makes me question whether this guy is an illegal alien. Makes you wonder how he got in the military !
TO:who is your Daddy,I aint going to go THERE-YOU MUST BE FROM ARIZONA-
Foreign nationals have been LEGALLY serving in the U.S. Military for decades. I enlisted in Texas in 1985 and I witnessed Mexican and Central American citizens taking the same oath of induction that I did. I also know a couple of Americans that served in the Israeli Army. Oh, and let’s not forget about the French Foreign Legion.
Gracias J.Stone:Did NOT want to go back and forth with “who is your daddy”.He OBVIOULY DOES NOT KNOW U.S.law.I also served 1 1/2 yrs.In the Ohio National Guard
@Who’s your daddy, not sure where you’re getting the illegal alien idea. You may want to re-read the article and may want to be more constructive with your comments.
Also, one doesn’t have to be a US citizen to join the military. It just limits you from being an officer.
I agree with Stefan, add an asterisk so everyone can distinguish between US vs. non-US.
kumbaya
Put an asterik by their results if need be but if they are a legal resident of the US and are following the rules and are a member of the USATF they are doing everything that I must do to compete so my vote is to include their results.
I voted NO.
I would be interested to know who funded the website of rankings. If it was soley John Seto, I’d say it’s up to him. Just because you bought your $30 usatf card doesn’t give you rights over his property. If some USATF money was involved, I’m sure they have some sort of policy on the matter.
I don’t see why a foreigner would want to be listed in the USA rankings, but if they are included, I like the asterisk idea vs. not using one.
Let him in! America is an inclusive country and his name being on a masters’ ranking won’t harm anyone or anything.
@Matthew, how can you vote no if you don’t yet know who funded the rankings website? You also favor the asterisk idea which means you should have voted YES!
Can an athlete request not to be ranked? 3rd place this year at Drake relays masters 800 and 2nd in 09 and 08 is not in the rankings.
You can actually compete in a USATF meet and not be a member in certain circumstances like these exhibition races.
Does this disqualify you from being ranked?
Stefan Waltermanns proposal is intelligent and clearly laid out.
And for me, as an interested outsider (I am from Switzerland), I can see better (more complete) what masters accomplish in the USA.
You don’t have to be a USATF member to have your time listed. Lots of senior games athletes, corporate team members, state games, all comers etc are on the list and they are not USATF members.
…I’m in the list and I still have my german passport. But about half of my results have been posted by others not by me, of course they are assuming I’m american!
Putting an asterix next to the result makes sense to me.
In Germany for example they have the “Open top 50” list. Any foreigner living in Germany registerd with the German track & field association and beating the top 50 mark of any given year gets added at the bottom of each discipline. I always thought that that works fine too.
I would’ve hated competing against an american stationed in Germany and not have him mentioned in the rankings alongside the people he competes with.
Hola Thomas!The rule is,You will be listed but not rank and you are correct,Seto has assumed that you hold DUAL citizenship or that you are American.Dont’t be suprised if you get “bumped” tonight.
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