Cross your fingers for Carol Frost on W65 American record in shot
Carol Frost
Wearing a red Nebraska Cornhuskers T-shirt, 1968 Olympian in the discus Carol Frost twice broke her own listed American record in the W65 shot yesterday at San Diego High School’s Balboa Stadium, site of a Jim Ryun prep mile record. The event was the State Games of America track meet. She had a best of 10.97 meters (nearly 36 feet), beating her old age-group PR of 10.50 (34-5½), even though only four tries were allowed. But be afraid for her. The meet was a holy mess. The event was USATF-sanctioned, but USATF officials were overwhelmed, recruiting bystanders to mark and measure throws. And Carol was told to get her implement weighed AFTER the event. Beforehand, throwers were told they were on the “honor system.” No kidding. Here’s a video just in:
And the meet set its own record by getting close to 2 hours behind schedule after only one event. (My 100 was set to go at 8:45 a.m. My gun went off at 10:30 a.m.) And my wife’s race was contested twice after the timing system failed on the first one.
Heats were reseeded at the starting line, with little communication with the timer tent. People’s times were mashed up and misrecorded. (No results are online yet.)
Athletes traveled from as far away as Philadelphia and North Dakota for this event. They got wonderful weather but deserved a far better-run meet.
Exhibit no. 909 as to why a sanction from USATF does not mean you will have a well-run meet. Can’t see any way that this one should be accepted.
I wonder whether Bernard Lagat’s mile record will be accepted (next post). Really doubt that he carried forms with him to the meet.
In terms of past marks, around February 1, Ken, you posted a nice item about two indoor marks achieved by Anselm LeBourne (M50) : 1:59.94 in the 800 and 4:13.56 in the 1500. Neither mark went anywhere.
As many know, in the 200 dash in Albuquerque in March, both Joy Upshaw (26.24 in 200, W50) and Barbara Jordan (36.80 in 200, W75) ran world marks. Neither was accepted as a world record, even though Bill Collins (24.32 in M60 200 at Albuquerque) obtained ratification for a world record the same month as the meet.
Same event, same track, same day, same FAT crew, but only one of the three marks made it through to world record status. Oh, well.
Milton Girouard - August 6, 2011
Sorry to say, no weigh-in before the event, no steel tape, no sanctioned officials to verify properly measured throw…no record either. If she gets this ratified as a record, she must have friends very high up ;~)…but congrat’s to Carol for a great throw anyway!
Milt Girouard - August 6, 2011
By the way… What you mentioned about this meet is nothing new, except the location. I’ve posted about this meet and it’s organizers before on Masterstrack.com in the past and why I would not compete at them anymore when it was held in Colorado Springs. The Games organizers seem to be more interested in tourism advertising and getting people to it’s location, than to run track meets professionally. They always seem like someone told them at the last minute that they had a meet to run. We also had spectators help measure, starting times of events were way off, and the straw that broke the camel’s back for me, was the year they lost all the throwing distances for the adults on their computer, yet did happen to keep our names in the proper placings, so they posted the results with no distances. When I wrote them and said I can practice near my home for no results and wanted my money back, their reply basically was, “Too bad, so sad”, We’re keeping the cash. I would stay away from this meet at all costs…
Tommy Aunan - August 6, 2011
I think Eugene got to step up to the plate again soon to run the USA Outdoor Masters Nationals. They know how to run a great track meet in that town!!!
David Mishalof - August 7, 2011
Here is a uTube video of Carol’s Record throw. I believe that they did use a steel tape to measure Carol’s throw.
They did weigh the shot’s before the competition. The “Honor System” comment referred to the different weight shots that were all being used at the same time… 16 pound to 3 pounds. The honor system was to use the shot that was appropriate for your age group.
There was one very hard working official for maybe 60 participants.
The shot put started at 8am and finished at 12:30pm
here is a picture of Carols fan Club
IMG_0132.JPG
Who's your daddy ?? - August 7, 2011
I can second Milt’s remarks about the State Games of America. Poorly run ! Too bad; because the concept is a good idea.
Mary Harada - August 7, 2011
I briefly considered going to the State Games of America because of the location – having family members who live in the area. However I soon crossed it off my list when I looked at the schedule – how on earth did they think they could run so many events in such a short period of time. And for me -I had already committed to expensive airfare and hotel costs for SAC and Berea. It is a good concept – I wonder how prior meets have been run? Have they been such a mess?
Meanwhile- back to the issue at hand – getting records accepted. Given the requirements – for track and field events – it is a wonder that any marks are accepted outside of national and international meets. And as noted above -even at national meets.
This perspiring mind wants to know – when did these strict requirements come into being? How many old marks were set years before the new requirements came into being? If someone set a record in – for example 1985 – were there cones or a curb around the track? Was there FAT timing, copies of the FAT timing finish, was the track officially measured and certified? Did they use steel tapes, weigh the implements first? Have certified USATF officials (or TAC, AAU) etc. It is becoming so complex that the real trick is to meet all the record requirements – beating the old marks is secondary. Perhaps we should have another set of records – AR and WR marks set but not kosher enough to meet the requirements of today.
How come everyone says “steel” tape — the Rule really says “Certified steel tape” etc. — 99 percent of the steel tapes are probably not certified — especially since it needs to be metric — but almost everyone overlooks that fact.
Not that that matters always — I have sent in records with the cert number from the tape included — at a National Championship – and steel have had records not make it thru —
If it is well run – I will go and enjoy the people —
What are the requirements for a sanctioned meet? Merely to pay a fee to USATF?
Meet officials assigned a high-school girl to run Javelin (about half an hour after the event was supposed to start). She was assigned one other student to assist her. No sector. No rule book. No materials to lay out a sector. No flags. And explicit instructions not to mark the grass.
The people who put on the meet were grossly negligent. USATF has a responsibility here.
Ken Stone - August 7, 2011
Jeff Vaughn’s wife, Karen, graciously allowed me to share her note to meet organizers:
Dear California State Games,
I am unable to find who the director of track and field is to wage a formal complaint concerning the way the State Games masters track meet was run, thus my letter is address to all who planned this sport.
My husband Jeff and I arrived a day early (Thursday August 4) to check in since my first events started at 8 am Friday and the check-in location didn’t open until 9 am. Why not have the check in at the stadium?
The javelin event was run by a young lady who wasn’t given any rules book, didn’t have enough help (my husband helped her for over three hours), didn’t have the venue properly sectored and flagged, wasn’t given any instructions about when to close the event, and didn’t know about the different implement weights for various age groups. Athletes WERE using the wrong javelins for their age group.
After my last event, Jeff and I left so I could shower and return to pick up my medals (if I had any). Lo and behold, I was told that I didn’t compete in the shot put!!! Must have been a ghost!!! We went down to the field and as it turns out, my best put was not entered into the computer, hence the medals were given to three others who didn’t deserve them. Well, I took to revised computer printout to the medals table and got my gold.
There was an athlete in front of me in line whose sprint time was given to a woman who didn’t run the race. Fortunately the woman was right there and able to accompany the real winner to the tent to get this straightened out.
And since the highschooler running the high jump didn’t measure heights in meters and centimeters, the fellow at the computer had to re-calculate each result by hand. Some people might have lost inches by this. We stayed until it was done.
And one discus thrower said that he had been at the stadium since 7 am (7 hours) and he was still waiting to compete. Real sad.
More things to note:
1. This WAS a USATF sanctioned meet and not adequately staffed with certified officials.
2. There should NOT have been highschoolers running events (the high jump and javelin for example).
3. There should have been water readily available for athletes ON the field.
4. The P.A. system worked, it should have been used. (Remind everyone that safety comes first. Look both ways before crossing the track. What is the next event scheduled? Who are the athletes at the starting line? Are there records being made or broken? Thank people for coming.)
5. Signs and maps work wonders. (Where are the open restrooms? Where is the javelin contested? What time will the weigh-in station close? Post a list of resources for those from out of town: taxi, buses, stores, etc.)
6. Many athletes made plans and purchased tickets for activities based on the schedule. I had to forgo a museum trip at Balboa park to wait for correct results.
7. Were there records made or broken? No matter, there weren’t enough officials to sign and certify any occurance(s).
This was the tip of the iceberg. It wasn’t just bad. It was pathetic. This was suppose to be a real competition event. It turned out to be a costly joke for the athletes.
Jeff V. (no. 10): Go to USATF Web site and then go to products/services. Go to event sanction and then look at a sample application. The word “officials” does not appear on the application.
In other words, you do not need to have officials for a USATF-sanctioned meet. On the post-event report form (or whatever it is called) there is a box you are supposed to check to say that you adhered to the rules, and there there is a brief mention of officials, but by then it is too late.
The essential point is that you can get a sanction and then run your meet with no officials, using friends and people pulled out of the stands, if that is your preference.
Whoops. There is indeed a mention of officials in the application but only in terms of waiver of liability. Again, you do not need to have officials to have a sanctioned meet.
Milton Girouard - August 7, 2011
David Malshof, I’m sure you want her to get the record badly as you have Carols fan club mentioned on your post ;~) I also want to believe she got the record and understand now what you mean about the weigh in, but it still doesn’t ratify the record if the official didn’t check to see what shot each thrower was using at the time of the throw, by showing them an unique, identifying marker on the shot, to be sure it was the right one for the competitor. Very confusing run event to say the least by having all the different weighted shot there at one time, instead of the proper shot there per age group, then no confusion. Are you also saying they had pre-weighed shots and competitiors couldn’t use their own shots if they weighed in passed?? If they did let them use their own implements, plus had pre-weighed meet shots, that would add even more to the confusion. Karen Vaugh, seems to have the most accurate depiction of the meet, because it sounds exactly the same as when it was run here in Colorado. Again, they just want you money and that’s all. Stay away from this meet and if you’ve read this and still go in the future, don’t complain afterwards…you were warned.
Lost in the notation above is the fact that Dr. Jeff Vaughn is a USATF Certified Official. He obviously was not assigned to this meet but served as a walk up volunteer out of necessity. By they way, he regularly has worked the meets I have put on over the years. Both he and Karen are well versed in how a track meet operates, or should operate.
I’m also going to note for all: while USATF officials are paid a small stipend, usually barely above the cost of gas to get to a track meet, their knowledgeable service is the best bargain in the proper conduct of a track meet.
And for those officials you see at National Championship events; they aren’t paid for doing National Championships. They travel, sometimes long distances, to work those long hours for your service at their own expense, just for the prestige of adding National Championships to their resume.
David Mishalof - August 7, 2011
I agree, this was by far the worst run event that I have attended. They also locked both the men’s and women’s restrooms that were closest to the parking lot after 8 am ????
All participant’s shot and discus were weighed, measured and marked with a blue magic marker based on weight. Therefore, if they had enough officials, and the official knew the age of the participant there could have verified that the proper weight implement was used.
the one official, Jason (?) who ran the shot worked his butt off. he was pleasant and knew what he was doing, they just needed three more officials just like him.
The sheets listing the participants was a random list of Open, Master, Men and Women. Generally, participants are grouped by age group, so that they know who they are competing against…Not here!
I will never enter this meet again!
PS The photo I tried to post of Carol Frost’s Fan club showed her two young grand children, a boy and birl, each holding a sign that read “That’s My Grand Ma” I believe that Carol’s Son and his family came out to support her from Nebraska. Yes, I hope that Carol get’s the AR and doesn’t suffer because of some technicality that the meet officials failed to follow. Carol conducted herself with grace and composure under very trying circumstances. IMHO she earned the AR>
Mary Harada (post no. 8): Mary, I won’t try to give you a history lesson, but I will offer one suggestion re this records issue. I would love to see a statement that the intention of USATF Masters is to accept all American and world records set at our national or world championships.
If certain records are not going to be accepted from nationals or worlds, I would love to see a requirement that the recordbreaker be notified within 2 weeks and that the reasons for not accepting the record be posted publicly within the same time frame.
To say it in one sentence: We need to be a lot more like open track and field. For example, you may know that the open American record in the high jump for women is 2.05 meters (6-8 3/4), which was set by Chaunte Lowe in the 2010 outdoor nationals in Des Moines.
Can you imagine the furor, Mary, if someone had decided to throw that record out? The athletes would be aghast. Throw out a record set at nationals? And yet this can and does happen to masters athletes. As argued elsewhere, this would mean a bigger records committee and a commitment to keeping the athletes informed.
One of the attractions of nationals in the past was that if you set a record there, it was good to go. Would love to see that reinstated.
Karen Vaughn - August 7, 2011
Congratulations again Carol. It was great meeting you and your family.
Karen Vaughn - August 7, 2011
p.s. By the way, does anyone know if the javelin, shot, and discus venues were properly marked and run on Saturday for the youth?
nadine O'Connor - August 7, 2011
I feel so bad for all of the athletes and their families who traveled to this meet. It certainly wasn’t a fair representation of what the San Diego track and field community is capable of organizing. The few officials that were there did an outstanding job of coping with limited resources and help. I was also impressed with how understanding and patient the athletes were. Carol, in particular, was patient and full of grace. It was a pleasure to meet her and her family.
In addition to some of the problems mentioned above, here are some other problems I observed:
I watched as the sprinters were kept on the track waiting for their heat start for what appeared to be an hour.
The long jump pit was about four inches low.
I understand that at least one competitor was competing with the wrong size javelin and that at least one throw by another thrower was mismeasured by a significant amount. There was a weigh-in stand in the far corner of the track, but I never saw officials verifying the weigh-in marks at the discus area.
The discus was supposed to start at 10. After waiting for a couple of hours we were finally given a start time of 12:30. We started our four warms ups at 1. We were allowed 4 competition throws, but we had to take 2 competitive throws back to back. As the ring was close to the long jump pit, the officials reoriented the direction of throws. A marker was placed at the back of the ring indicating the center, but after the fact the official realized that it was in the wrong spot. The ring was marked by a painted circle, not a metal band as required by USATF rules.
There was a legal ring available on an upper field.
I had signed up for the pole vault which was to be competed the next morning, but after the first day’s experience, I decided to not return.
Rick McCantz - August 7, 2011
Send in your complaints to the Cal state games!! They care more for the youth portion then they do the masters. They see it more as a inconvience then as a real meet and put no resources towards the masters portion. The meet director who is also the meet director for the youth portion will barely even show up!! They need a new meet director ASAP and your complaints will serve the cause in change. To hold the meet on Friday morning with a time schedule they had no intentions to stay on is a crime! How much did they charge for this meet? Way to much for what we got!!! Complain to them!!
Milton Girouard - August 8, 2011
Rick, You’ve got the right idea, but with these guys, writing and calling won’t work. They’ll apologize, promise it’ll be better next year…laugh at your e-mail or letter after they respond and count their Games earnings. The only thing that gets their attention is boycotting the Games and inturn, hitting them hard in the pocket, or a law suit. It’s a damn shame that in these tough times financially, organizations get away with asking for non-refundable entry fees and then get away with not putting out a good product for all those that spent even more money traveling to San Diego to compete.
David E. Ortman (M58) - August 8, 2011
The State Games of America organizing committee is in charge of putting on a multitude of sports for national competition including:
Archery, Badminton, BMX, Bowling, Figure Skating, Gymnastics, Jr. Lifeguards, Karate (starting at age three!!!), Skateboarding, Surfing (try that in Kansas), Water Polo, Wrestling, etc.
The chances of having a well run masters track/field meet is virtual nil, given the above demands of other sports.
Same problem with the National Senior Games. Way too many other “sports” for NSG to take T&F very seriously. (i.e. Archery, Badminton, Basketball, Bowling, Cycling, Golf, Horseshoes, Race Walk, Racquetball, Road Race, Shuffleboard, Softball, Swimming, Table Tennis, Tennis, Track & Field, Triathlon, and Volleyball.) Does anyone seriously think that a NSG gold medal for shuffleboard or horseshoes is equivalent to a 1,500m?
Marty Wright - August 8, 2011
I’ve competed in the last two National Senior Games in throwing events. Both were pretty good meets. I will compete again at a NSG if the location and funds are favorable for me. I’m not sure that the NSG falls in the same category of the State Games of America based on the above comments.
Senior Games and State Games are two different sponsoring organizations. No relation between the two.
National Senior Games does not carry USATF sanction, but has 3 or more trained and qualified officials at every field event, as well as enough volunteers to run the events properly.
State Games carries USATF sanction, but barely has enough officials and volunteers to run one field event at a time. In my not so humble opinion, USATF sanction is meaningless.
Marty Wright - August 9, 2011
Hi Jeff,
I know these are two completely different organizations. I have never competed in the State Games but have competed in the Senior Games. The Senior Games sound like a much better event than the State Games based on the comments above. I was concerned that the Senior Games were being categorized as a sub-standard event similar to the State Games.
“Same problem with the National Senior Games.”
I appreciate the warning about the State Games.
Marty Wright - August 9, 2011
David (and Ken)- Sorry you guys had a bad experience at the last two Senior Games. I had a good experience.
The natural comparison is between masters nationals and the Senior Games; the State Games are nowhere in the ballpark.
Things have happened at masters nationals that one can’t imagine happening at Senior Games. For example, in 2009 at Landover the FAT crew massively messed up the timing; in 2011 at Albuquerque more than 200 people signed up for the 60 dash and not a single one had gotten a time when all was said and done.
Even today (August 9), the 60 dash at Albuquerque is said to be “under review.”
On the other hand, masters is much better at scheduling the events than is Senior Games. In terms of officiating, I hear that both are very good, but I have no direct experience with Senior Games and did hear of some possible irregularities with one of the Senior Games in the past.
Every meet has problems, glitches, whatever. Then there are the real stupid things.
For example, one of the officials at W50 Javelin in Palo Alto claimed that he purposefully designed the schedule of events to minimize participation in multiple events, to minimize the number of officials needed. For example, (nearly) every Masters hammer thrower is a shot putter. You can reduce participation by scheduling hammer and shot at the same time. You can reduce it further by scheduling an overlap of those events with javelin. This works most effectively when the fields are 1/4 to 1/2 mile apart, which was the case in Palo Alto.
The fiasco with the vertical jumps at the Masters Nationals last year. They ground airplanes in Phoenix at lower temperatures than the Sacramento tarmac. Moving the bar one centimeter at a time? For what? The competitors (4 or 5 age groups at the same time) and the jump officials were not allowed to do something sensible.
My wife’s opinion: The high-level officials of the Pacific Association (Northern California) can not be trusted to sensibly schedule field events. Karen has decided not participate in any more major meets of any brand held under the Pacific Association’s jurisdiction. Why make the trip for that kind of grief?
Ken has followed track as an athlete, writer and web-master since the late 1960s, and saw most sessions of track and field at the 1984 Los Angeles and 1996 Atlanta Olympics. He also attended the 1988, 1992, 2000, 2004, 2008 and 2012 Trials, the last three as a blogger and Patch correspondent. [More...]
30 Responses
Exhibit no. 909 as to why a sanction from USATF does not mean you will have a well-run meet. Can’t see any way that this one should be accepted.
I wonder whether Bernard Lagat’s mile record will be accepted (next post). Really doubt that he carried forms with him to the meet.
In terms of past marks, around February 1, Ken, you posted a nice item about two indoor marks achieved by Anselm LeBourne (M50) : 1:59.94 in the 800 and 4:13.56 in the 1500. Neither mark went anywhere.
As many know, in the 200 dash in Albuquerque in March, both Joy Upshaw (26.24 in 200, W50) and Barbara Jordan (36.80 in 200, W75) ran world marks. Neither was accepted as a world record, even though Bill Collins (24.32 in M60 200 at Albuquerque) obtained ratification for a world record the same month as the meet.
Same event, same track, same day, same FAT crew, but only one of the three marks made it through to world record status. Oh, well.
Sorry to say, no weigh-in before the event, no steel tape, no sanctioned officials to verify properly measured throw…no record either. If she gets this ratified as a record, she must have friends very high up ;~)…but congrat’s to Carol for a great throw anyway!
By the way… What you mentioned about this meet is nothing new, except the location. I’ve posted about this meet and it’s organizers before on Masterstrack.com in the past and why I would not compete at them anymore when it was held in Colorado Springs. The Games organizers seem to be more interested in tourism advertising and getting people to it’s location, than to run track meets professionally. They always seem like someone told them at the last minute that they had a meet to run. We also had spectators help measure, starting times of events were way off, and the straw that broke the camel’s back for me, was the year they lost all the throwing distances for the adults on their computer, yet did happen to keep our names in the proper placings, so they posted the results with no distances. When I wrote them and said I can practice near my home for no results and wanted my money back, their reply basically was, “Too bad, so sad”, We’re keeping the cash. I would stay away from this meet at all costs…
I think Eugene got to step up to the plate again soon to run the USA Outdoor Masters Nationals. They know how to run a great track meet in that town!!!
Here is a uTube video of Carol’s Record throw. I believe that they did use a steel tape to measure Carol’s throw.
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dtlf5G5yCfrI&h=OAQDa2c3GAQBYIa6JsmByGtvHJ3G30B5NGBvZnPbe8CcwHA
They did weigh the shot’s before the competition. The “Honor System” comment referred to the different weight shots that were all being used at the same time… 16 pound to 3 pounds. The honor system was to use the shot that was appropriate for your age group.
There was one very hard working official for maybe 60 participants.
The shot put started at 8am and finished at 12:30pm
here is a picture of Carols fan Club
IMG_0132.JPG
I can second Milt’s remarks about the State Games of America. Poorly run ! Too bad; because the concept is a good idea.
I briefly considered going to the State Games of America because of the location – having family members who live in the area. However I soon crossed it off my list when I looked at the schedule – how on earth did they think they could run so many events in such a short period of time. And for me -I had already committed to expensive airfare and hotel costs for SAC and Berea. It is a good concept – I wonder how prior meets have been run? Have they been such a mess?
Meanwhile- back to the issue at hand – getting records accepted. Given the requirements – for track and field events – it is a wonder that any marks are accepted outside of national and international meets. And as noted above -even at national meets.
This perspiring mind wants to know – when did these strict requirements come into being? How many old marks were set years before the new requirements came into being? If someone set a record in – for example 1985 – were there cones or a curb around the track? Was there FAT timing, copies of the FAT timing finish, was the track officially measured and certified? Did they use steel tapes, weigh the implements first? Have certified USATF officials (or TAC, AAU) etc. It is becoming so complex that the real trick is to meet all the record requirements – beating the old marks is secondary. Perhaps we should have another set of records – AR and WR marks set but not kosher enough to meet the requirements of today.
How come everyone says “steel” tape — the Rule really says “Certified steel tape” etc. — 99 percent of the steel tapes are probably not certified — especially since it needs to be metric — but almost everyone overlooks that fact.
Not that that matters always — I have sent in records with the cert number from the tape included — at a National Championship – and steel have had records not make it thru —
If it is well run – I will go and enjoy the people —
What are the requirements for a sanctioned meet? Merely to pay a fee to USATF?
Meet officials assigned a high-school girl to run Javelin (about half an hour after the event was supposed to start). She was assigned one other student to assist her. No sector. No rule book. No materials to lay out a sector. No flags. And explicit instructions not to mark the grass.
The people who put on the meet were grossly negligent. USATF has a responsibility here.
Jeff Vaughn’s wife, Karen, graciously allowed me to share her note to meet organizers:
Dear California State Games,
I am unable to find who the director of track and field is to wage a formal complaint concerning the way the State Games masters track meet was run, thus my letter is address to all who planned this sport.
My husband Jeff and I arrived a day early (Thursday August 4) to check in since my first events started at 8 am Friday and the check-in location didn’t open until 9 am. Why not have the check in at the stadium?
The javelin event was run by a young lady who wasn’t given any rules book, didn’t have enough help (my husband helped her for over three hours), didn’t have the venue properly sectored and flagged, wasn’t given any instructions about when to close the event, and didn’t know about the different implement weights for various age groups. Athletes WERE using the wrong javelins for their age group.
After my last event, Jeff and I left so I could shower and return to pick up my medals (if I had any). Lo and behold, I was told that I didn’t compete in the shot put!!! Must have been a ghost!!! We went down to the field and as it turns out, my best put was not entered into the computer, hence the medals were given to three others who didn’t deserve them. Well, I took to revised computer printout to the medals table and got my gold.
There was an athlete in front of me in line whose sprint time was given to a woman who didn’t run the race. Fortunately the woman was right there and able to accompany the real winner to the tent to get this straightened out.
And since the highschooler running the high jump didn’t measure heights in meters and centimeters, the fellow at the computer had to re-calculate each result by hand. Some people might have lost inches by this. We stayed until it was done.
And one discus thrower said that he had been at the stadium since 7 am (7 hours) and he was still waiting to compete. Real sad.
More things to note:
1. This WAS a USATF sanctioned meet and not adequately staffed with certified officials.
2. There should NOT have been highschoolers running events (the high jump and javelin for example).
3. There should have been water readily available for athletes ON the field.
4. The P.A. system worked, it should have been used. (Remind everyone that safety comes first. Look both ways before crossing the track. What is the next event scheduled? Who are the athletes at the starting line? Are there records being made or broken? Thank people for coming.)
5. Signs and maps work wonders. (Where are the open restrooms? Where is the javelin contested? What time will the weigh-in station close? Post a list of resources for those from out of town: taxi, buses, stores, etc.)
6. Many athletes made plans and purchased tickets for activities based on the schedule. I had to forgo a museum trip at Balboa park to wait for correct results.
7. Were there records made or broken? No matter, there weren’t enough officials to sign and certify any occurance(s).
This was the tip of the iceberg. It wasn’t just bad. It was pathetic. This was suppose to be a real competition event. It turned out to be a costly joke for the athletes.
Karen Vaughn
W50
masters athlete since 1992
Jeff V. (no. 10): Go to USATF Web site and then go to products/services. Go to event sanction and then look at a sample application. The word “officials” does not appear on the application.
In other words, you do not need to have officials for a USATF-sanctioned meet. On the post-event report form (or whatever it is called) there is a box you are supposed to check to say that you adhered to the rules, and there there is a brief mention of officials, but by then it is too late.
The essential point is that you can get a sanction and then run your meet with no officials, using friends and people pulled out of the stands, if that is your preference.
Whoops. There is indeed a mention of officials in the application but only in terms of waiver of liability. Again, you do not need to have officials to have a sanctioned meet.
David Malshof, I’m sure you want her to get the record badly as you have Carols fan club mentioned on your post ;~) I also want to believe she got the record and understand now what you mean about the weigh in, but it still doesn’t ratify the record if the official didn’t check to see what shot each thrower was using at the time of the throw, by showing them an unique, identifying marker on the shot, to be sure it was the right one for the competitor. Very confusing run event to say the least by having all the different weighted shot there at one time, instead of the proper shot there per age group, then no confusion. Are you also saying they had pre-weighed shots and competitiors couldn’t use their own shots if they weighed in passed?? If they did let them use their own implements, plus had pre-weighed meet shots, that would add even more to the confusion. Karen Vaugh, seems to have the most accurate depiction of the meet, because it sounds exactly the same as when it was run here in Colorado. Again, they just want you money and that’s all. Stay away from this meet and if you’ve read this and still go in the future, don’t complain afterwards…you were warned.
Lost in the notation above is the fact that Dr. Jeff Vaughn is a USATF Certified Official. He obviously was not assigned to this meet but served as a walk up volunteer out of necessity. By they way, he regularly has worked the meets I have put on over the years. Both he and Karen are well versed in how a track meet operates, or should operate.
I’m also going to note for all: while USATF officials are paid a small stipend, usually barely above the cost of gas to get to a track meet, their knowledgeable service is the best bargain in the proper conduct of a track meet.
And for those officials you see at National Championship events; they aren’t paid for doing National Championships. They travel, sometimes long distances, to work those long hours for your service at their own expense, just for the prestige of adding National Championships to their resume.
I agree, this was by far the worst run event that I have attended. They also locked both the men’s and women’s restrooms that were closest to the parking lot after 8 am ????
All participant’s shot and discus were weighed, measured and marked with a blue magic marker based on weight. Therefore, if they had enough officials, and the official knew the age of the participant there could have verified that the proper weight implement was used.
the one official, Jason (?) who ran the shot worked his butt off. he was pleasant and knew what he was doing, they just needed three more officials just like him.
The sheets listing the participants was a random list of Open, Master, Men and Women. Generally, participants are grouped by age group, so that they know who they are competing against…Not here!
I will never enter this meet again!
PS The photo I tried to post of Carol Frost’s Fan club showed her two young grand children, a boy and birl, each holding a sign that read “That’s My Grand Ma” I believe that Carol’s Son and his family came out to support her from Nebraska. Yes, I hope that Carol get’s the AR and doesn’t suffer because of some technicality that the meet officials failed to follow. Carol conducted herself with grace and composure under very trying circumstances. IMHO she earned the AR>
Mary Harada (post no. 8): Mary, I won’t try to give you a history lesson, but I will offer one suggestion re this records issue. I would love to see a statement that the intention of USATF Masters is to accept all American and world records set at our national or world championships.
If certain records are not going to be accepted from nationals or worlds, I would love to see a requirement that the recordbreaker be notified within 2 weeks and that the reasons for not accepting the record be posted publicly within the same time frame.
To say it in one sentence: We need to be a lot more like open track and field. For example, you may know that the open American record in the high jump for women is 2.05 meters (6-8 3/4), which was set by Chaunte Lowe in the 2010 outdoor nationals in Des Moines.
Can you imagine the furor, Mary, if someone had decided to throw that record out? The athletes would be aghast. Throw out a record set at nationals? And yet this can and does happen to masters athletes. As argued elsewhere, this would mean a bigger records committee and a commitment to keeping the athletes informed.
One of the attractions of nationals in the past was that if you set a record there, it was good to go. Would love to see that reinstated.
Congratulations again Carol. It was great meeting you and your family.
p.s. By the way, does anyone know if the javelin, shot, and discus venues were properly marked and run on Saturday for the youth?
I feel so bad for all of the athletes and their families who traveled to this meet. It certainly wasn’t a fair representation of what the San Diego track and field community is capable of organizing. The few officials that were there did an outstanding job of coping with limited resources and help. I was also impressed with how understanding and patient the athletes were. Carol, in particular, was patient and full of grace. It was a pleasure to meet her and her family.
In addition to some of the problems mentioned above, here are some other problems I observed:
I watched as the sprinters were kept on the track waiting for their heat start for what appeared to be an hour.
The long jump pit was about four inches low.
I understand that at least one competitor was competing with the wrong size javelin and that at least one throw by another thrower was mismeasured by a significant amount. There was a weigh-in stand in the far corner of the track, but I never saw officials verifying the weigh-in marks at the discus area.
The discus was supposed to start at 10. After waiting for a couple of hours we were finally given a start time of 12:30. We started our four warms ups at 1. We were allowed 4 competition throws, but we had to take 2 competitive throws back to back. As the ring was close to the long jump pit, the officials reoriented the direction of throws. A marker was placed at the back of the ring indicating the center, but after the fact the official realized that it was in the wrong spot. The ring was marked by a painted circle, not a metal band as required by USATF rules.
There was a legal ring available on an upper field.
I had signed up for the pole vault which was to be competed the next morning, but after the first day’s experience, I decided to not return.
Send in your complaints to the Cal state games!! They care more for the youth portion then they do the masters. They see it more as a inconvience then as a real meet and put no resources towards the masters portion. The meet director who is also the meet director for the youth portion will barely even show up!! They need a new meet director ASAP and your complaints will serve the cause in change. To hold the meet on Friday morning with a time schedule they had no intentions to stay on is a crime! How much did they charge for this meet? Way to much for what we got!!! Complain to them!!
Rick, You’ve got the right idea, but with these guys, writing and calling won’t work. They’ll apologize, promise it’ll be better next year…laugh at your e-mail or letter after they respond and count their Games earnings. The only thing that gets their attention is boycotting the Games and inturn, hitting them hard in the pocket, or a law suit. It’s a damn shame that in these tough times financially, organizations get away with asking for non-refundable entry fees and then get away with not putting out a good product for all those that spent even more money traveling to San Diego to compete.
The State Games of America organizing committee is in charge of putting on a multitude of sports for national competition including:
Archery, Badminton, BMX, Bowling, Figure Skating, Gymnastics, Jr. Lifeguards, Karate (starting at age three!!!), Skateboarding, Surfing (try that in Kansas), Water Polo, Wrestling, etc.
The chances of having a well run masters track/field meet is virtual nil, given the above demands of other sports.
Same problem with the National Senior Games. Way too many other “sports” for NSG to take T&F very seriously. (i.e. Archery, Badminton, Basketball, Bowling, Cycling, Golf, Horseshoes, Race Walk, Racquetball, Road Race, Shuffleboard, Softball, Swimming, Table Tennis, Tennis, Track & Field, Triathlon, and Volleyball.) Does anyone seriously think that a NSG gold medal for shuffleboard or horseshoes is equivalent to a 1,500m?
I’ve competed in the last two National Senior Games in throwing events. Both were pretty good meets. I will compete again at a NSG if the location and funds are favorable for me. I’m not sure that the NSG falls in the same category of the State Games of America based on the above comments.
Marty,
Senior Games and State Games are two different sponsoring organizations. No relation between the two.
National Senior Games does not carry USATF sanction, but has 3 or more trained and qualified officials at every field event, as well as enough volunteers to run the events properly.
State Games carries USATF sanction, but barely has enough officials and volunteers to run one field event at a time. In my not so humble opinion, USATF sanction is meaningless.
Hi Jeff,
I know these are two completely different organizations. I have never competed in the State Games but have competed in the Senior Games. The Senior Games sound like a much better event than the State Games based on the comments above. I was concerned that the Senior Games were being categorized as a sub-standard event similar to the State Games.
“Same problem with the National Senior Games.”
I appreciate the warning about the State Games.
David (and Ken)- Sorry you guys had a bad experience at the last two Senior Games. I had a good experience.
Peace!
The natural comparison is between masters nationals and the Senior Games; the State Games are nowhere in the ballpark.
Things have happened at masters nationals that one can’t imagine happening at Senior Games. For example, in 2009 at Landover the FAT crew massively messed up the timing; in 2011 at Albuquerque more than 200 people signed up for the 60 dash and not a single one had gotten a time when all was said and done.
Even today (August 9), the 60 dash at Albuquerque is said to be “under review.”
On the other hand, masters is much better at scheduling the events than is Senior Games. In terms of officiating, I hear that both are very good, but I have no direct experience with Senior Games and did hear of some possible irregularities with one of the Senior Games in the past.
Marty,
Every meet has problems, glitches, whatever. Then there are the real stupid things.
For example, one of the officials at W50 Javelin in Palo Alto claimed that he purposefully designed the schedule of events to minimize participation in multiple events, to minimize the number of officials needed. For example, (nearly) every Masters hammer thrower is a shot putter. You can reduce participation by scheduling hammer and shot at the same time. You can reduce it further by scheduling an overlap of those events with javelin. This works most effectively when the fields are 1/4 to 1/2 mile apart, which was the case in Palo Alto.
The fiasco with the vertical jumps at the Masters Nationals last year. They ground airplanes in Phoenix at lower temperatures than the Sacramento tarmac. Moving the bar one centimeter at a time? For what? The competitors (4 or 5 age groups at the same time) and the jump officials were not allowed to do something sensible.
My wife’s opinion: The high-level officials of the Pacific Association (Northern California) can not be trusted to sensibly schedule field events. Karen has decided not participate in any more major meets of any brand held under the Pacific Association’s jurisdiction. Why make the trip for that kind of grief?
See you in Lisle.
Leave a Reply