USATF may end pentathlon at masters nationals
Former USATF Masters T&F Chairman George Mathews, mindful of the heat emergency at Charlotte nationals in 2006, wants to downsize masters nationals (indoors as well) by eliminating the pentathlon. He made this proposal at the 2006 USATF annual meeting in Indy. But it was tabled and is being revived this November at the convention in Hawaii. He’d rather have a separate national pentathlon championships. His reasoning: “With the growth of our indoor and outdoor championships, we have been unable to conduct our indoor championships in three days and the outdoor championships without overworking our officials, local organizing committees and facilities.â€
George continues:
We need to split the outdoor championships into two-part days in order to eliminate competition during the hottest part of the day for the health and safety of our officials, athletes and spectators. Pentathletes will be able to maximize performances in both championships by separating these championships.
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33 Responses
I understand the reason for this. However it would be very difficult for me (and others I’m sure) to handle the extra time and expense of one more national competition on top of indoor/outdoor championships. Unfortunately I don’t have unlimited funds or vacation time, and one of the competitions would have to be skipped. How many other people feel this way?
I totally agree with Liz, we (multi-eventers)have a seperate Decathlon and Heptathlon now.
I agree with Liz,
Phil
I’ve always enjoyed competing in the track/field pentathlon. After I returned to masters competition a few years back, I was very pleased to learn that the event was held at the Nationals. I believe that an event like the decathlon or heptathlon do become burdensome because of the time needed to complete them. The pentathlon however, if run properly and planned for in the meet schedule, can be completed within 3.5 hours (per age group).
Also, most of us under the age of 65, still work full time. I don’t have unlimited vacation time, nor the funds to attend 4 different national events each year. If forced to choose, I’d go to the pentathlon national over the national track meet.
Eliminating the pentathlon makes as much sense as eliminating the distance races. The 10K,5K, & steeplechase draw small fields in most age groups and take as long or longer than the pentathlon to complete. Why not eliminate those events instead?. How about the hurdles? It seems to take forever to set up the high hurdles and intermediate hurdles, then move them to different marks for different age groups, for a small group of entries. Maybe the hurdles could be held in a separate nationals just for hurdlers. How about removing the sub-masters. The 30 & 35 age groups are lucky to draw 1-3 competitors per event.
Bottom line is that it is absurd to consider removing any group of competitors from the nationals. If the USATF isn’t able to handle the competition, maybe we should all switch over to the NSG’s. They seem to be able to handle at least 4 times the number of competitiors at their nationals, even without the youngsters (49 and under).
The indoor pentathlon was not always part of the nationals. It used to be a separate event, but, as I recall, there was difficulty in finding venues for the national indoor pentathlon championship as a separate event (in 1990 the ?¢‚Ǩ?ìindoor?¢‚Ǩ¬ù pentathlon championship was held outdoors at a Los Angeles high school track). As a result, at some point in the 1990s the national indoor pentathlon was rolled into the regular masters nationals. Maybe a shortage of available venues might not be a problem today: for several years now the national indoor heptathlon has been conducted as a free-standing event. But the existence of the indoor heptathlon (which didn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t exist in the early 1990s, as far as I know) might contribute to a general lack of interest in a separate pentathlon. So I think we should consider the possibility that the national indoor pentathlon might not survive if it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s cut loose from the regular nationals.
2008 was going to my first Indoor Pent. But . . . I will not be able to attend two different venues if it becomes separated. – Jeff Davison
i think that the venues should stay the way they are.as a working guy,factors such as location and calendar affect my entry to nationals…at 53, i’ve attended princeton ’84…mitchell field ny ’86…boston ’04 and orno ’07….two indoor and two outdoor. at boston i did my first pentathlon, and had a blast.if it wasn’t there, i’m sure that i wouldn’t have been able to attend at a different time and place.i try to hit a few indoor meets locally, and a few outdoor, to keep my parts moving, and sometimes when the planets are aligned just right, and there’s enough fuel in my soul,i’ll travel back in my mind and grow younger again, and try my best against our best, and whatever the outcome,i’m always proud to be a part of it,and even more proud of my fellow athletes.please leave the meets the way they are…
Initially and on impulse, I voted for a separate pentathlon. For selfish reasons, I have to say. I thought a separate outdoor pentathlon would allow me to be more competitive in a bunch of individual events at the US Nationals. (Man, I’m tired after the pentathlon!) Considering the time and money issue for many of my friends and competitors, I change my initial vote. Leave the events together. Don’t change a thing. I might not be competitive in other events but at least I’m going to have a chance to hang with my buddies and be part of our premiere annual events, the Indoor and Outdoor Masters Nationals.
FR: David E. Ortman (M54) Seattle, WA
Keep the national meets and pents together. Believe me, the pent is a great warmup for the 400m hurdles.
Ditto from me to Jeff Davidson’s comments.
II seems obvious that most athletes who are willing to post are in favor of the pentathlon being run with the indoor and outdoor championships for economic and time considerations.
It’s hard to believe that many benefit athletically in the regular championship after having expended so much energy in the pentathlon.
I have always felt that we should always do what’s best for the athlete. That being said; I believe that this one small group’s desires, usually around 50+, is actually working against the welfare of all the other athletes.
Because of the facility, officials and schedule time, other athletes, particularly the throwers are jammed into very long daily schedules.
Maine is not a good example. If we expect growth in these championships, 1500 +, you will have to expand the meet to 5 days outdoors and 4 days indoors, to get everything done in on a reasonable schedule. You will have fewer and fewer officials willing to give that much time and fewer venues capable of economically running such a meet. At some point, when work officials this hard, they are going to demand to be paid for their work. Those costs will be transfered to the athletes.
At some point athletes have to look at the big picture.
I could be asking that the weight pentathlon be part of the championships as well. I could save me a lot money.
We should have a rule that says all multi event championships should be stand alone meets, including the weight pentathlon. Also, parts of other championships, such as the outdoor weight throw championships should not be added to the outdoor track & field championships.
The “exhibition” and award of national championship medals at the weight throw in the Maine outdoor championship contributed to a decline in entries at the “real” weight throw championships held this month.
We need to start appreciating the practicalities and business realities of our sport
Unless there is more sunshine allowed into the process of planning and budgeting for national champs, rank and file USATF members like me just won’t be able to understand the “practical and business realities” or their consequences.
As Ironslinger posted on the forum recently, it is amazing that there aren’t sponsors out there jumping at the chance to sponsor masters sport.The senior games have a sponsor.
Now I admit to not knowing the ins and outs of all this, but I’ve also never had a good explanation. Is it USATF’s lack of interest in masters? Is it because we have too many events? Is it because the powers that be don’t ask for sponsorship? I certainly don’t know. I’ll keep listening. Maybe Craig Masback will post!
Sorry George, but I have to disagree with your statements. The multi-event championship has traditionally been part of all major championships, from the Olympic games to the US Championships.
While the track and field pentathlon is a hybrid version of the decathlon and heptathlon, it is a legitimate all around running/field multi event.
Just because it somehow causes inconvience for the the throwers, is no reason to eliminate it from the program. If you want to find areas to streamline the meet, elimnate the 30-39 age groups. I’m sure the sub masters were added at some point to increase attendance at the championships. In Maine there were 153 submaster competitors for the 80 events offered.
I can also sense some jealousy in your statement regarding the weight pentathlon. I’m sure you’d love to have it added to the program, and I wouldn’t oppose its inclusion. But as an event, it’s not a traditional track and field event. The only major championship that I know that offers it is the World Masters Championships.
George Mathews has again stated in this thread that championship medals were given to competitors in the weight throw exhibition in Orono.
For the record, that was never intended to be the case. The event was advertised as an exhibition with no medals to be awarded. When it was suggested they be awarded in Orono the Games Committee Chair Jim Flanik, MTF Chair Gary Snyder and I (as Weight Events Coordinator) discussed it and were in complete agreement that this was inappropriate and meet management was so informed prior to the event.
Our discussion took only a few seconds because our unanimous and immediate reactions were identical. If any were awarded, they should not have been.
Please keep the pentathlon as a part of the National Championships. I have enjoyed competing in the pentathlon at Nationals since 1983. I can only afford one trip a year from Hawaii. Canada is in the process of adding the pentathlon to their outdoor championships. Sorry to disagree with George on this matter. He is a hero to me as a competitor, meet director, and leader of our program. See you at the convention.
It’s fine to disagree but it is obvious that most athletes are in this sport for themselves. It’s understandable. It’s also a shame that they can’t go beyond “me” and consider the facts presented by someone who has administered the National Championships a Chair for 5 years, Championship Site Chair for 4 years, a member of the games commitee for 4 years and an athlete forever.
The pentathlon in conjunction with The Track & Field Championships is putting too much stress on the The Track & Field Championships.
For a ” practicalities and business reality” check it should be understood that most everything that USATF Professional Division does is underwritten by the quest for medals at the Olympics, a multi sport event.
The National Senior Games Championships can do more because it is a multi sport event. For information sake it should be understood that sponsor revenue for the Senior Games is for the Championship event not the National Senior Games per se. The National Senior Games Organization gets the entry fees and the meet Local Organizing group gets the sponsorship revenues.The reason is numbers. Sponsors buy numbers. That’s why they don’t invest in a realively small 1000-1500 Masters Track & Field meet.
Many smart people and not so smart ( including myself ) in the past have challenged why USATF can’t get more sponsorship for Masters Track & Field.
Some have said we should do it ourselves and failed. The truth is that Craig Masback has always tried to leverage MTF with the power of his professional athlete sponsorships. It hasn’t worked out very well. We don’t have the numbers event. I consider Craig and his staff to be a very talented and successful in the sponsorship area.
This obviously plays into my ongoing pitch as why MTF should be part of The National Senior Games. Run MTF as a subsidiary of NSGA, use and pay for services rendered by their senior centric national staff and benefit from the sponsorship in some way from their bi-annual championship event.
Money can buy event happiness for the “ME’ generation.
Ask not what you can do for me, but what you can do for your sport.
Spend a day in the sun as a volunteer and better understand the difficulty in running our Championships.
Athletes have to make choices. Sometimes you may not be able to compete in all the meets you want to. I know that is definately true in my case.
I Love this sport. I wouldn’t keep debating you guys if I didn’t.
Some very good arguments for keeping the Pentathlon a part of the Nationals.
Question: What kind of growth do we want and expect?
It would seem to me that the time is right for being subsidized by a corporate sponsor, thus covering more overhead and bringing our sport into view.
As Ken suggested, maybe elimination of sub40 groups or moving distance races to another event.
How about qualifying standards? Only for the Nationals.
Whatever measures are taken it seems that holding our Nationals united, we would benefit from the utilization of facilities and the exposure of our well trained masters athletes!!
I do not know the business end of the USATF, but I find it hard to understand how seperation of MTF could benefit this organization.
Increasing popularity of T&F in this country should include the “new generation of geezer jocks”. You see references to our new vitality everywhere, and we also hold the largest wealth.
Just some thoughts!
I have spent “a day in the sun as a volunteer” more than a few times (shagging the discus, no less) and I know it is strenuous. So there is a need to somehow compress the national meets in order to run them more efficiently. I believe there are other methods of achieving this as noted by other posters besides spinning off the pentathlon into a separate meet. If that were done I predict it will fade out in attendance and popularity. And that is definitely NOT in the best interest of our sport. So in the best interest of masters track and field (and not just ME), please consider other ways of streamlining besides eliminating events from the national championship meets. Posters on this thread have come up with several ideas.
George
Maybe you could inform us in more detail about your solution to the pent “problem” Do you have any detailed ideas about when you would schedule them if they aren’t part of Nationals. This IS a “me” sport,and it’s not unreasonable for people to want to keep their expenses down, beside the fact that they are trying to peak at a certain time for the best possible performances. The arguments could go on and on. As for the NSGO, would joining with them include eliminating all age groups under 50? And…Besides volunteering at a meet( I HAVE) what else can the athletes do to make this sport better for all the “me’s”? Thanks
Why make the pentathlon the focus of the rescheduling effort? A separate National Championship Meet for Racewalking events and/or the 5,000m and 10,000m races could just as easily be held. In fact, that may make more sense in that those participants would less likely compete in other track or field events while many pentathletes compete in other events…
I fail to see the logic of eliminating 15% of your athletes (the submasters) and the next generation of masters athletes. Doesn’t it make sense to do things to encourage MORE participants in an effort to grab corporate sponsors? I don’t know the answer, maybe two venues would help?
Although I am not too keen on George’s solutions (moving the pentathlon out of the meet), he is correct in recognizing a big problem with Nationals. That being that it is TOO DAMN BIG !! As athletes we get to warm up, do our event, then hide in the shade til our next event. I do not think that people realize how overworked the officials are. They stay at their posts all day for 4 days and can not hide from the heat as much as the athletes can.
There is no solution to this problem that will make everyone happy. However, if there is no change, I bet you will find less qualified officials volunteering for this “ordeal” each year.
As for NSG, forget about it! Not interested ! As a XC and road runner, I’m stuck with USATF. I don’t need another bill to pay. Besides, a multi-sport agency ??? Remember AAU ??
I guess I am one of those SELFISH athletes that somehow can’t cough up the money to make multiple trips across the country. I would, however, be willing to pay a higher entry fee so that officials could be compensated for their work, or volunteer during off times or days during a competition week to help the officials with implement retrieval, hurdle set-up, or whatever. I know the officials have it rough. This is why they are even less likely to want to travel to another whole venue. What if they signed up to do shifts, instead of being expected to work each and every day? If we had enough athlete volunteers, would that kind of a set-up work? Please don’t seperate the multi-events from the nationals.
This is the first of three posts.
George;
You allude to the facts but so far have provided us only opinion and conjecture. You expect us to take your word as fact because of your service to the USATF (and I do appreciate the job you did while president), but at the same time show a bias against the pentathlon because “throwers are jammed into very long daily schedules”. Let’s examine the facts surrounding the pentathlon.
-the pentathlon as a championship event: every major track and field championship has a multi event. In just about all meets it is the decathlon and heptathlon. As we age up in masters track, in throwing the implements become lighter, and in the hurdles the barriers become lower, and the distance shorter. The same rational can be said for the pentathlon. The pentathlon is still a true test for the multi event athlete. It tests speed and endurance (200m & 1500m) and also strength and technique (DT/JT/LJ). For women it contains 5 of the 7 events of the heptathlon. The pentathlon is a legitimate event, and should be considered in the same light as the other sprints/throws/jumps/ and distance events. There is no legitimate reason for its exclusion from the championship program.
-time to complete the pentathlon: I have now competed in 3 of the last 4 outdoor pentathlons. In the event we are put into 10 year age groups to expedite the competition. My age group (50-59) is usually the largest group. In all the years I’ve competed, its never taken us longer than 45 minutes to complete a field event (warm up and actual competition). While I’ve never competed in a regular field event, I have watched them. Most 5 year age groups take at least 1 hour to complete. If I take the discus throw as an example, it takes the pentathlon less than 3 hours to complete the event. At the same time it takes about 9 hours plus to complete the regular discus competition. I fail to see how we are over stressing the officials and other athletes.
(to be continued)
Continued:
How can the meet be streamlined?: First of all, the meet is the masters championship. While I support the inclusion of as many athletes as possible, if we must streamline the meet there are other groups that could be removed in the sake of streamlining. As I’ve said previously, we offer 80 events to the sub masters age group (30-39). Most of these events only attract 1-2 competitors. By eliminating the sub masters age group, we’d save as much time, if not more, that the pentathlon takes to complete.
At the same time you talk about the “me” attitude, and how as pentathletes, we should sacrifice our event for the better good of the group. I’ll present some additional facts: just about all pentathletes compete in other events at the meet. At the same time, just about all of the throwers just compete in the throws. Why don’t the throwers leave the meet for their own competition? You could have championship events in the SP/DT/JT/HT and even add the WT and the weight pentathlon. Of course I’m being facetous with the above comment, but I believe it does bring to light the actual problem of the meet, which is not the inclusion of the pentathlon, but the flawed process in which the meet is put out to bid, and the results of the bidding process.
(to be continued)
Final post: 3 of 3
What is the real problem with the USATF Championship meet?
If you really want to examine the real problem with the meet, you need to look at the bidding process and how the meet is awarded. The bidding process seems to be modeled after the USAFT open meet procedure. To have the bidding procedure to be effective, you need multiple bidders. With the open championship, a meet promoter can hope to make a profit with the meet. The unfortunate fact with the Masters Championship, the winning bidder can only hope not to lose money on the meet. By the time the winning bidder meets the requirement of providing perks required in the contract (like providing free room’s for USATF exec’s, amoung other requirements), the meet management must often cut corners to avoid a loss. Due to the above facts, there are very few bidders for the USATF National Masters meet.
Let’s look at the NSG as a different example. Instead of holding the competition over 4 days as the USATF does, they hold the event over 9 days. Does this put less stress on the athletes and officials-it sure does. Why don’t we look at adding days to the meet, instead of kicking people out? The additional days could also lead to morning and evening sessions, thereby eliminating more stress, by avoiding the hottest part of the day.
I’ll even offer a solution to this problem. Eliminate the bidding process, and find a semi-permanent site for the meet. One thing we have pleanty of in this country are college facilities that are under used in the summer. I’m sure the USATF could strike a deal with a major college, maybe in the midwest (so travel is not unfair to the east or west coasters), to use the track (one with lights) and to also use the dorms for the athletes and competitors. The rent for the track, and lighting, could come out of the entry fees, and the rooms for the USATF exec’s could be factored into the rate charged to the competitors. The university would take their cut on the room fees (rooms that would ordinarily be empty), and if structured right, you might be able to offer reduced rate, or free rooms for the track and field meet officials. Of course, this might mean a higher room rate for the athletes, but it would still be hopefully cheaper than a commercial hotel, and more convienient.
The meet could be held at one location for perhaps 2-3 years, then move to another part of the country for another 2-3 years. Of course this will require a change in thinking on behalf of the powers to be in the USATF.
George, I think we’d all be better off if you and others in the USATF would try to come up with real solutions to the problems of the Masters Championship meet, rather than the slash and burn attitude you display.
As far as moving Masters T&F to the NSG, that’s a move I think should be explored. They are certainly doing something right. They draw 4 times as many competitors as the USATF meet, and hold it in a better organized manner. At the same time the USATF should be able to come up with credible solutions, rather than sticking their heads in the sand.
Thank you, Ken, for providing this forum and for holding a vote on the issue of eliminating the Pentathlons from National Masters Championships. The usual posting on your blogs draws zero to five or six comments.
The results of the poll and the comments clearly show that rule change number eight on the agenda of rules changes to be considered at the USATF convention should be withdrawn now.
I wish someone would let us know what the rules committee schedule means when category five (discuss / refer) is assigned to item eight to delete the pentathlons from the National Championships. The comments posted in favor of eliminating the pentathlon expressed “me” attitudes.
Are the financial statements submitted to USATF by every winning bidder of National Masters Indoor and Outdoor Championships posted on a web site available for anyone to review? This would provide the information needed by anyone who wants to know the real picture before bidding.
There are a number of championships which take more than four days. Morning and evening sessions will not improve the nationals. Old people need to go to bed early and get up early to compete. Who could compete until late in the evening and then compete again at sunrise. Maybe all the race walks, 5ks, 10ks, road races and steeple chase races should be held in the evening sessions.
The indoor and outdoor pentathlons should stay as is and the rule change be withdrawn before some funny railroad job takes place at the convention to pass some batch of rules at once.
Many of us competing in the multi-events will never win an individual event at the national championships. We are very good in a number of events, outstanding in none. The pentathlon (indoor and/or outdoor) IS our event at the championship meets and we deserve to compete just as any other athlete in their selected event(s). Please keep the pentathlon as a part of both the indoor and outdoor national championships.
I think this is going the wrong way. The Pentathlon and Wt. Pentathlon should be part of the Nationals. The Wt. Pentathlon has been held in out of the way places that make participation difficult.
I would suggest that we follow the format of the World Championships and have the Pentathlon competitions at the end of the Nationals. I also think that competing in a single event each day is something that could be addressed.
Most of us would do better competing in two events in a day and then having a rest day. Compressing the events so that are done by Friday with a rest day on Saturday before the multi-event competitions might make sense.
I had another thought after sending a previous posting. My brother participates in handball and plays in tournaments all over the world. It is common practice to have participants officiate early round matches. Many masters athletes have coached and officiated for many years.
I would not feel put upon to be asked to help officiate in another age group. Likewise standing around watching is not much different than officiating. One of the reasons that competitions drag on is a lack of skilled officials and helpers.
Adding a request on the entry form to assist in another event (choose top 3 choices) would provide a large pool of people that would be available and would already be at the competition. Spouses and family members often have more experience than the officials I have seen at national competitions.
The idea that the competition should be scheduled around the “heat of the day” to benefit the officials ignores the fact that the competition is held for the competitors. If we need more help, ask for it.
Getting certified is fairly simple. We could do that in a few minutes on-line. We are already at the competition, this would be a small contribution. You could also offer an incentive to help with officiating (t-shirt or other freebees).
Great ideas Paul!
I think you pentathletes have probably made a strong case to keep the pentathlon in the indoor and outdoor championships. I think it is probably too much for me to expect that you believe how difficult the problem is.
I appreciate all the well meaning input that you all have provided.
I hope that “powers that be” Your chair, executive committee and games committee get this information. You need to know they don’t for the most part get your input unless someone forwards it to them, and they read it.
This isn’t an USATF site even though you might notice that I embrace it now that I’m no longer responsible.
I believe it is important for me to at least clarify some of the understanding that you guys have presented.
First you should know that USATF doesn’t run USATF Masters Track & Field. It is run by volunteers. The Chair has the most power, followed by “his or her” ( quote ) executive committee if they are empowered and then the games committee. The USATF National office takes in membership fees and provides some services.
The Chair really is responsible for the National Championships, the Annual Meeting and the strategic plan. After doing that for a few years you are burned out.
Most of the well meaning suggestions are simplistic solutions for a very complicated business venture. The outdoor championships run over $200,000. Little “perks such as rooms for the Chair and games committee don’t put a dent into the budget.
In most cases it is a loser except in places like Eugene because of local community support and Spokane where the have a funded sports commission.
Colleges aren’t sitting around during the summer waiting for us to come along. The dorms are either closed or being used for camps.
It isn’t easy getting people to put on these meets. One of the biggest reasons has to do with getting an extensive organizing committee to make it happen. This is maybe more important than anything else.
Comments about “streamlining” are really going in the wrong direction. We should be looking to make the meet a wonderful experience for competitors. The reason I mentioned the throwers is that they take a lot of time. One day each for four days. I know the meet is a three ring circus and respect the other disciplines as well.
My suggestion after all this is to move the pentathlon to Wednesday to open up the schedule.
Unfortunately, it takes a lot of experience to truly grasp the significance of my input. It probably won’t be heeded.
Spokane will be good, Central Florida will be another lesson unlearned and Sacramento will be great because they want to do it right prior to the Worlds.
And so it is! I need to let go.
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