Deadline extended for regular-fee entry to Oshkosh nationals
Gary Snyder, chairman of the USATF Masters Track & Field Committee, writes: “Would you let folks know (the) deadline for entry without late charge (is) extended to Monday 6/15.2009 5:00 PM Eastern time.” This means that you can enter the Oshkosh masters nationals without having to pay a late fee until 5 p.m. Right Coast time Monday. I think the previous deadline for regular-fee entry was Friday. The drop-dead deadline for signing up for Oshkosh remains 5 p.m. Eastern time June 19 — this coming Friday. If you enter after Monday, you pay a late fee of $50. As a result of the economy, the National Senior Games in California and other pricey meets — Lahti and the World Masters Games in Australia — all meets stand to suffer smaller-than-usual fields.
21 Responses
I’ve been tilting at this windmill since I registered for my first National Championships 22 years ago. This insanity won’t end until somebody comes to their senses, but I still don’t think I am on the wrong track.
Every year we play this game, pushing the entry closing date farther away from the actual start of the meet. To the athletes, this can ONLY be regarded as a hostile action. This may be fun for us participants. This is our hobby, but money is involved. This is a business. YOU ARE OFFENDING YOUR CUSTOMERS. “Gee, they make me register so far in advance, they really don’t want me to come.” Guess what? They don’t register. The customers aren’t buying. Entries fall short of what the meet administrators expected or hoped for. Suddenly, magically, the entry deadline moves a little later. Like any business suddenly holding a sale, they are in effect saying “Oh, we’re really not so bad. Please, please buy from us.”
But they are so bad. All of these entry deadlines are imposing artificial urgency on the athletes–the customers–for the convenience of the meet administrators. The meet administrators fear the length of time, the manual labor it will take to override the incorrect seedings that the computerized Hy-Tek Meet Management system will spit out. You know, computers can save you so much time and effort, right? Thats why you need three weeks to get it to work.
I’ve been over the arguments, nobody is listening. If it were my decision, if anybody can physically make it to the meet, we should find a way to accommodate them and let them participate. And especially in these economic times, any business owner would wisely accept their customer’s money.
I couldn’t agree with you more. There is absolutely no reason the entry deadline should be a full month before the meet starts. The entry deadline for the World Champs is even more ridiculously early. Are they trying to keep people away? Sure seems like it. BTW anyone notice that the entry deadline for the REAL USATF Championship meet is only about a week before the meet starts and the late deadline is the week of the meet and they aren’t begging for participants like we are.
I agree with the aforementioned from a business standpoint…
from an athlete’s position (M40 sprinter) a prelim for maybe 12 guys entered!!!…if they all show up..UGH!
oh well, thanks Economy..
Two of the things I would like to see before Pres. Obama’s daughters are old enough to run for president are (1) an entry deadline that is closer to the actual meet, and (2) the acceptance (as records) by masters T&F of (a) FAT marks in major meets or regional/association championships and (b) steel-taped performances in the field events in these meets. I’ve talked enough about records, and so I will talk about the deadline/attendance.
Andy Hecker is a lot smarter than I am, and if he says it (registration) can be done in an entirely different, more athlete-friendly way, I say “go for it.” It’s not like we have a lot of athletes who are going to compete.
I do have a bit of historical perspective, and I recall that in 1989 the nationals in San Diego had 1450 entrants. In 1994, the nationals easily broke 1400, and in 2000 we set our record of 1503. After that meet we had exactly one outdoor championship (Charlotte in 2006) that had a decent turnout, if by “decent” we mean more than 1250. What?
Oshkosh will need every break it can get to exceed 1000 entrants. I must ask again, what kind of meet can get 1450 entrants in 1989 and not exceed 1000 in 2009? In the last 2 decades we have seen many positive developments: (1) excellent PR, including the efforts of Bob Weiner, National Masters News, etc., (2) the fuller acceptance of masters at such major venues as Penn Relays, Mt. SAC Relays, etc., and (3) population growth in the 10s of millions.
How then, I ask you, can we have a meet in 2009 that is struggling the way Oshkosh is? By the way, I just checked the entries — the groups with good turnouts are 50, 55, and 60. Ironically, those are groups that are affected by the presence of the Sr Games in California. The 45 group has a modest turnout, 40 is very disappointing, 35 is dubious, and 30 is hopeless.
The message: Somehow we have to right the ship and figure out how to have a nationals that attracts at least 1700 entrants.
San Diego had so many entrants because a lot of them were foreigners here for the world games in Eugene shortly after!
Many, many masters are self-employed and must see how their workload is before they can commit to a meet so far in advance. There is also the issue of injuries and/or fitness level as the meet registration deadline approaches. In many regional meets with a closer deadline there is a huge flurry of entries right at the end for the very reasons mentioned above. It is not a procrastination issue for masters who compete at this level of dedication.
Yes, San Diego (1989) benefited from having several hundred entrants from foreign countries who had come to the U.S. for the worlds (held in Eugene). On the other hand, think of the hundreds of American masters who, faced with a choice of going to Eugene for worlds or San Diego for nationals decided to go to Eugene.
Admittedly, it’s hard to figure with precision whether San Diego got a net advantage or net disadvantage from having its meet the same year as Eugene had the worlds. But, if you don’t like that example, consider that Eugene easily broke 1400 in 1994 and hit 1503 in 2000. Given how much the population has grown since then, one would expect us not to be struggling so much in 2009. Yes?
Thank you Peter.
I will say, in 1989 I personally registered for the National Championships at the table outside the gate. It is there I met David Pain personally for the first time. Same Day Registration, amongst our biggest crowd, before computers had gotten so sophisticated.
I’ve made these points before. When I talk, it seems like the people who can change this, cover their ears and start humming:
For big meets, like the Olympic Trials, the entry deadline is just days before the meet. Those meets require qualifying marks. Duffy Mahoney does not just accept marks, he researches the situation if he is at all in doubt (meaning entry into those meets requires much more individual labor, per entry). Athletes have run in meets that I have put on (Masters Meets set conveniently on the last day for qualifying–yes, I planned that, thank you), on a Saturday and ran their first race at the Trials on a Tuesday. In between, I received a phone call asking about the circumstances of the meet and the athletes involved (like why did a 22 year old win the race by so much? . . . because 2nd place was a fast M40). The point is, big meets can figure this stuff out. Our meet organizers don’t want to. I’m going to blame the Committee more than the individual LOC’s because they set the ongoing policy.
While we Masters athletes are dedicated individuals, our hobby is not the primary thing in our life. Most people have jobs, families and other commitments to fit into a busy schedule, along with athletic pursuits. Even if we have a concrete, predictable schedule, who knows when we are going to feel great, or have some crazy injury pop up. I’ve pulled more muscles getting out of a chair than I have jumping hurdles. When so much is in doubt, booking a meet a month in advance involves more risk than many people want to take. Why apply the extra pressure?
I’ve been putting meets on for a decade now. Every single one of them has had Same Day Registration. I would like to say they had Same Day Registration exclusively, but politics forced me to take advance registration. Advance registration causes unnecessary paperwork that causes inflexibility. You want the best race with the people who showed up to run, not with the ones who signed up a month ago. Those empty lanes in the middle of the track are because somebody registered and didn’t show up. The computer can’t adapt to the reality on the start line–a human being with a pencil can.
It does not matter if you have a dozen athletes or thousands at the meet. There is a mathematical limitation built into our sport–there are only so many people you can have on the track (or on a runway or in a ring) at the same time. Even if you save the work until the last second, you can’t run races fast enough to get behind. Sprinters take a long time to get in their blocks, if you can’t sort 9 items in a couple of minutes you belong in the short bus. Distance runners might have more runners on the track, but their races take longer. And most people will show up in time to warm up–plenty of time to process paperwork–if only you use a system that will let them. Schedule? If you want things to be on time, you run the meet slowly, with lots of time between events. We have 40 years of experience putting on National Championships. By now we have a pretty good approximation of how many people will show up for an event. We know to plan for preliminaries in the M40-50 100m, but not in the W95 Super Weight throw.
I could go on and on . . . and I have. But the folks who like the status quo are the ones who get selected to make those decisions. They just want me to shut up.
I’m sorry you guys don’t get it. It takes a lot more time to put the schedule together than you understand. It’s always easy when when your on the sideline. Sandy is the best there is. You see what happened when she didn’t do the indoors. When she stops doing it we are in real trouble.
We all understand that people have injuries ( maybe a partial refund with a doctor’s note?), personal and business problems. That’s life. This is a big meet. Surly you have to make travel and housing arrangements more than three weeks before the meet.
Support your volunteers. Better yet, volunteer.
See if the SoCal Association would hold the National Championships with Andy as meet director?
And so it is! With Love.
George
USATF Club Nationals are July 10 and 11
Early deadline is July 6 and final deadline is July 8. Only days in advance !! I understand there are no age divisions at Clubs, but wow !, what a difference !
If I were not in a new age division this year, I would not consider Oshkosh, I’d be in NYC. I know a lot of East Coast masters will opt for Icahn.
I can’t believe these two meets are on the same weekend by the way !!
I would be more than happy to serve as Meet Director for the Nationals. Anywhere. Many would love to have the Nationals here in Southern California. There are many great facilities to choose from and transportation into this area is easy from just about everywhere.
However, political forces both here and nationally would seem to prevent that. When Southern California put in the bid to host this year’s Nationals, Mark Cleary went out of his way to distance the bid from me. He and most everybody on the National Committee level knows I will insist upon allowing Same Day Registration. Even though I was the sitting SCAUSATF Masters T&F Chairman, he kept all of the process about the bid in secrecy, away from me, so there was no way I could be construed as being involved. We don’t need to rehash the old wounds from that devious bid in this discussion, but you could be running here in Southern California later this summer had things been done differently. And had I been involved, you wouldn’t be worrying about registration closing in June.
I build my annual vacation plans around Masters track meets. Three or four weeks in advance is a reasonable deadline. Late fees are also reasonable. Last minute entries are a nightmare.
I agree with George Mathews that several weeks are needed for a first class Masters Championship which involves so many events and so many age brackets for men and women. Facilities, publicity and many other variables require lots of planning.
I have experience managing meets and do not appreciate last minute entrants shopping for medals by finding events with limited entrants, scrambling of heats and flights at the last minute causing athletes frustration with warming up and planning their schedules, waiting forever for results and awards to be unscrambled due to late entrants, posting of incorrect results due to last minute confusion and taxing the well intentioned volunteers and officials with responsibilities to provide perfection given a very imperfect set of last minute changes.
The numbers attending the USATF National Masters Outdoor Championships will probably increase significantly next year when the meet is held in Sacramento and so many other conflicting meets are not held concurrently. We also need to continue to build the grass roots program to help local Associations develop masters track competition. We also need much more support from USATF headquarters.
A recent study indicated that only 35% of the US population over age 65 uses the internet. We need to do more to continue snail mail communication with older masters.
I look forward to the fun and fellowship of Masters friends at Oshkosh, Waukesha and Palo Alto.
Aloha, Jack Karbens, President Hawaii Masters TC
I don’t care if the registration is same day or several weeks before the meet. However, once a deadline is set it should be cast in stone. I object to playing musical deadlines. Perhaps a refund is warranted to those of us who registered on time.
Hi Everybody,
Let me set the record straight. The following is a portion of my National Masters News article following the 2008 USATF Annual Meeting in Reno NV where the Masters T&F Committee discussed ‘scheduling’ for nearly an hour and the approximately 50 members present voted in favor of the intervals below.
National Masters News December 2008
The committee also voted to approve a standard time line for the indoor and outdoor USA Championships meets. This provide for the posting of schedules on a consistent basis to aid travel and lodging arrangements.
6 Months prior to first day of competition. Entries open with day of event schedule
26 Days prior to first day of competition Entries Close
19 Days prior to first day of competition Late entries close
14 Days prior to first day of competition Detail Schedule Available
Gary Snyder
Chair
USATF Master T&F
617-480-6506
garysnyder@att.net
it was extended 3 days..what’s the beef?
I know of a couple who will register a bit late due to the fact that they are jumping into a new age group…
Although I am not competing in Oshkosh because of the conflict with USATF Club Championship at Icahn Stadium, NYC, I am happy that there is going to be a National Outdoor Masters Championship in 2009.
The current site in Oshkosh came available when it was evident from the Regional Masters Championship in late August 2008 that Clermont, Florida as a venue would not be appropriate for Nationals.
I understand the issues about the deadlines being too far in advance, but as for it conflicting with Club Champs, we need to remember that the venue was changed and adjustments had to be made. So I say be grateful for being able to have a Nationals this year.
Oshkosh will be my 4th year in a row at Masters Outdoor Nationals. The last 3 were great. I don’t think there are any other meets in the USA where we actually have a full compliment of officials. As a bonus, the officials are the best! Even with a couple of hiccups, the meet organization is still hard to beat. We even got the meet moved from Florida.
We’ve known for months when the deadline was. For a meet of this caliber, same day registration is not reasonable. I’ve been to one of Andrew’s meets also and loved it too. But for National’s, I don’t mind letting them know a few weeks ahead of time that I’m coming.
The assertion is made that it takes a long time to put together the final meet schedule, and so I decided to try it out.
We already have a preliminary schedule, and that’s a great start. Trials in the 100 are on Friday, and the finals are on Saturday. I examined the preliminary schedule and then looked at all the data on entries. I concluded that we need, in the following order, trials in M65, M60, M55, M50, M45, and M40 (no trials needed for women).
Scratches before the event could change that information, and we would have to wait for scratches regardless of where the entry deadline is set. Thus, any “final schedule” is subject to considerable change. For example, the trials for the 800 run are often cancelled (in both 2007 and 2008 more than half the trials in the 800 were cancelled, indicating that the final schedule is actually quite rough).
My total time for examining the preliminary schedule and defining the trial heats (which can only be done by age group, not by individual competitors, until we have the scratches): 4 minutes. Thus, I remain among those who “don’t get it.” From a statement made above about the value of one person, I wonder why we can’t have four or five people working on it rather than one.
I have been to Andy’s meets and they always run behind sometimes like two hours behind and many of the competitors leave because they don’t want to wait around– why do they get behind because he is taking same day registraion with not enough volunteers to get the job done effectively-trust me you don’t want this guy involved in running any meet that is on the scale of a National Championship-it would be a disaster.
Mark, You always attack people for not using their names when they attack you but here you are attacking Andy “anonymously.” His meets may be long because he does not have enough volunteers not because of late registrations. But at least it is all done in one day. Your meet takes two half days and the 5k starts at 7 in the morning. Unless you live ten minutes away, which you do, everyone else has to get a hotel and stay a couple of nights.No wonder attendance is so small.
After a bit of self-reflection, I fully admit that I was one of those who has complained about the early deadline. But, I also complained last year about the lack of a time schedule of events.
So, I can’t have my cake and eat it to. We have to plan our lives around the meet schedule, etc. and the more time for that, the better. I like seeing 14 days prior listed as that deadline so look forward to seeing a final time schedule in a week.
See y’all in Oshkosh!
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