National Senior Games entry numbers blow away Jax competition

Roger Pierce (left) is shown at 2007 Orono nationals. He’s in Minnesota now.

Could it be the weather? Ambience? Status? For whatever reason, entry lists at the National Senior Games track meet now under way in St. Paul, Minnesota, are a lot fatter than those for Jacksonville masters nationals in a couple weeks. In Florida, a dozen are entered in the M70 100. At the University of St. Thomas, 28 men ran in today’s heats of the M70 100, led by Roger Pierce with a 13.79 mark. The meet cialis online began Tuesday with hammer throws. Results don’t note records, so let me know if you spot any great marks. (See results here.) According to local weather forecasts, it’s been in the 70s today in Minneapolis, with highs in the 80s the rest of the week. Not bad. Don’t ask about Jax. (In case you’re wondering, I am skipping outdoor nationals this year. Hope to see you next year in Michigan — home of my dad and many other relatives.) Anyhoo, best of luck to everyone everywhere!

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July 8, 2015

38 Responses

  1. Mike - July 8, 2015

    Ken,

    Your continued exercise in schadenfreude re: the outdoor nationals is frustrating. If our Masters athletes abandon our Nationals in the south, I can guarantee one thing. We will have fewer bidders for the Outdoor Nationals. That is not good for any of us. The time is coming when we(USATF Masters) will not have a bidder for this meet. What will be the reaction then?

    Mike Travers
    USATF-NE Masters T&F Chair

  2. Mike Walker - July 8, 2015

    I am sure that weather is a factor but it seems to me, the Sr Games are designed to encourage more people to participate and to attract a the more casual athlete who would be intimidated by the USATF championships. I know several people who in Minneapolis right now but who would never enter the USATF meet. I agree with Mike Travers in that we should not exclude meets in the south.

  3. chuckxc - July 8, 2015

    I’ve been to Nationals in Wisconsin and Maine (twice). Each time, the temps were high. There seems to be no place in the US you can really hide.
    Athough 70s today in MN sounds great. I’ll be at Canada Nats next week. Hoping to finally find a “cool” National meet, HAHA.

  4. Ken Stone - July 8, 2015

    Great use of schadenfreude, Mike. I had to review meaning:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

    Truth is, I’m a far bigger supporter of USATF circuit than the Senior Olympics, since it has a history of missteps. I’ve written a lot about them. (I’m an equal opportunity disser.)

    But your difficulty in finding bidders for USATF masters nationals deserves discussion. How much help are you getting from national office, local associations and even prominent athletes? Have you written the masters coordinators of all USATF associations? Have you reached out to colleges?

    What is your process for recruiting bidders?

  5. David E. Ortman (M62), Seattle, WA - July 8, 2015

    Hey, running, jumping runs in the family! I was at the 2013 NSG in Cleveland/Berea. But since I couldn’t make the 2015 National Senior Games, I sent my Aunt Harriet (Mueller) Kaufman (W75) (my mother’s younger sister) from Freeman, South Dakota (my home community). She never got a chance to participate in her youth as this was way before Title IX. She is trying to make up for it now. I’m doing long range coaching. So far:

    W75
    100m Preliminaries – 9th and just missed the finals
    Javelin – did not make the finals
    BUT
    Long Jump – 3rd place – a Bronze medal and would have gotten 2nd except that a foreigner from Trinidad/Tobago snuck in for the silver.

    Tomorrow she has the 50m Preliminaries and the High Jump, then on Friday the shot put and perhaps a 4x100m relay if she can get on a team, in which case she should have a good chance of a second medal. Yeah, she enters many events like I do and gets her money’s worth.

    That’s the first day report.

  6. Terry Parks - July 8, 2015

    The Nationals are too close to the Worlds for me, so I opted for the Senior Games.

  7. Diane Pomeroy - July 8, 2015

    I think that the timing of the Nationals 10 days before the World Championships hurt the numbers this year.

  8. The Dude - July 8, 2015

    2017 NSG is in Birmingham Alabama. 95 degrees with 56% humidity tomorrow. If weather is the prime factor it shouldn’t be too hard for USATF to come up with some place a little more comfortable.

    Roll Tide! Or is Birmingham War Eagle territory?

  9. Peter L. Taylor - July 8, 2015

    @ #8 (The Dude): 2017 outdoors will be in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

  10. Tom Sputo - July 8, 2015

    Just what is the estimated number of athletes registered for Jacksonville?

  11. Peter L. Taylor - July 8, 2015

    Tom, I estimated about 1010*, but you will have to check with somebody with closer knowledge.

    * For years, the maxim that in a national masters meet athletes enter, on average, 2.3 events, has served me well. From that I recently estimated 1010 athletes or so. However, a few might have trickled in. Let’s say 1020, but meet management would know better.

  12. Ken Stone - July 8, 2015

    Meet director in Minnesota reports 1540 bib numbers issued, so that’s the entries.

  13. Craig Davis - July 8, 2015

    FORGET THE WEATHER, WE PERFORM ON ALL WEATHER TRACKS.

  14. Craig Davis - July 8, 2015

    The bigger issue is having the Nationals less than a week away from the Senior Games. We have too few meets as it is and to have the 2 biggest meets back to back is the biggest deterrent. This happens to local HS meets with groups not willing to coordinate. How do you fix this MAJOR ISSUE. Hot weather anywhere in the US can be blazing at this time of the year. I have Houston RED TRACK still on a set of spikes from 2011 Senior Games, see my FB. Again the timing of this meet is horrible. I paid the few for NSGA but opted out to compete at the Nationals for the higher level of competition.

  15. Alan Kolling - July 8, 2015

    I am sorry that my group will miss the Outdoor Nationals this year as it is too close to the start of the Worlds for us on the West Coast to fly home, and then head off to Europe a few days later. We also skipped the NSG because, frankly, we found the siren call of a WMA champs in the gastronomic heart of France harder to resist, and one’s retirement dollars will only go so far. As the wag said, Only Time Will Tell if we made the right decision to place all of our athletic eggs in one basket.

  16. Jim Schoffman - July 9, 2015

    Peter your estimating formula is quite close. Using my rudimentary excel skills I came up with 958 entrants for Jacksonville. I’m from Minneapolis and higher temperatures and humidity are predicted for the weekend. However, it’s the forest fires in Canada that could cause air quality problems if the winds blow from the northwest. Monday afternoon and early evening the air worse than Beijing. Fortunately it cleared.

  17. Peter L. Taylor - July 9, 2015

    Thanks for that, Jim. I had forgotten to add that I didn’t fully trust my “2.3” formula for this one, sensing that it might have produced an overestimate. For a moderately sized meet, Jacksonville has an inordinate number of sprinters but not, apparently, many entrants who chose to do a lot of events.

    Counting Canadians and others who did not show up in the entries, I am guessing we have about 970.

  18. Milan Jamrich - July 9, 2015

    I compete only once or twice a year. It is Lyon this time…

  19. Peter L. Taylor - July 9, 2015

    Jim, Prof. Sputo, and interested others: As the years go by, one would think our numbers would increase steadily, as the US population aged 30+ keeps rising. Looking back, however, we might view the 1989-2000 era as the golden age of masters T&F in the US (worlds were held in Eugene, Oregon, in 1989 and Buffalo, NY, in 1995).

    In the 1989-2000 era we exceeded 1400 at nationals three times, or in 25% of those years. Counting Jacksonville, the 15-year period of 2001-2015 will produce only one meet with over 1400: Sacramento in 2010.

    Looking a little more closely, however, one sees that the four meets in our history that have exceeded 1400 were all in one of two states: California or Oregon. For nationals in states other than California or Oregon the “under 1400” would be a very good bet.

    It would be ridiculous, however, to restrict the championship sites to those two states on the West Coast. The solution is to have more reasons for athletes 30+ to sign up.

  20. Mike - July 9, 2015

    Many masters track athletes see the National Sr Games as a less competitive alternative. They view the USATF Nats as too competitive. I have heard this 1st hand on the association level. However, many of us know this to be false. I believe the SR Games are just as competitive as the USATF version. It’s all about perception.

  21. Matt McCubbins - July 9, 2015

    I wish they would drop the minimum age a few years for NSG so I could play too :-). Maybe to M45/W45 (or even 40!) as an entry point? Might draw prospective new under-50 folks to try masters competition and us “regulars” another big meet opportunity.

  22. Mike - July 9, 2015

    Ken,

    Although I am no longer the USATF Masters Site Selection Chair, the challenges to attracting quality bidders for the Outdoor meet continue.

    1. Most Div. 1 tracks cannot host because we require multiple throws areas. We usually need more than one JT, HT, DT, and SP areas. JAX is the outlier. The Univ of North Fla is a superb facility. Facilities need to be quality and capable of having records set.
    2. Hosts must WANT to have us. We cannot force communities to organize a meet for us.
    3. Our competition e.g. National SR Games, WMA Worlds, etc don’t consult with us to coordinate the dates for all the meets. Generally, we are left to schedule around them.
    4. A short window to have the 4 day meet. Usually 2nd week in July to the 1st week in August. Outside of that brings conflict with Football(Aug) and many of our athletes teach and/or coach.
    5. Many colleges are reluctant to schedule a track meet in July when they schedule very lucrative sports camps.

    Mike Travers

  23. David E. Ortman (M62), Seattle, WA - July 9, 2015

    Response to #21:
    NSG – 50+
    USATF Masters Championships 30+

    USATF Outdoor Masters National Championships offers:
    5000m Race Walk
    10000m Race Walk
    10000m Run
    5000m Run
    Hurdles
    Pentathlon
    4×400 Relay
    4×800 Relay
    but the NSG do not.

    NSG offers:
    50m
    but the USATF Championships do not.

    However, if you go to the NSG you can also participate (if you qualify) in Shuffleboard, Horseshoes, Golf, Pickleball(invented in Seattle), Table Tennis, etc.
    This also intends to inflate the NSG track and field numbers by including athletes participating in other sports.

    Think of the National Senior Games and the World Masters Games as the Olympics (multi-sports for oldsters) and the USATF and WMA as the single sport National and World track and field championships. Two different concepts for both the open and masters/senior track and field athletes.

  24. Tom Sputo - July 9, 2015

    Mike Travers has some excellent points, probably the biggest is finding sites that want to have this meet. It isn’t a big economic impact for most places. Complain all we want, unless we can convince some of these locations that we want to travel to that this is something they should bid on, it isn’t going to happen. I’m going to go out on a limb here, but if Jacksonville and UNF were not going to be hosting the National Junior Olympic meet immediately following the Masters meet, I doubt that we would be in Jacksonville. Or to put it a better way, the JO meet is what is making this worthwhile for Jax, our meet is just an add-on.

    Regarding college facilities, the throwing area issue that Mike brings up is a biggie. For instance, last year Wake Forest added another circle for the weight (and not too happy about what they did, but beggers can’t be choosers.) And for misplaced liability reason, many schools just do not want outside users renting their facilities any more.

  25. David E. Ortman (M62), Seattle, WA - July 9, 2015

    Follow-up to my post #23 regarding attendance comparisons:

    AGE-GROUPS:
    NSG – 50+
    USATF Masters Championships 30+

    Advantage should go to USATF with more age groups.

    EVENTS:
    USATF Outdoor Masters National Championships offers:
    5000m Race Walk
    10000m Race Walk
    10000m Run
    5000m Run
    Steeplechase
    Hurdles
    Pentathlon
    4×400 Relay
    4×800 Relay
    but the NSG do not.

    NSG offers:
    50m
    but the USATF Championships do not.

    Advantage should go to USATF due to offering more events. The 50m event can’t account for that many more NSG participant.
    —-

    MULTI-SPORTS:
    However, if you go to the NSG you can also participate (if you qualify) in Shuffleboard, Horseshoes, Golf, Pickleball(invented in Seattle), Table Tennis, etc.
    This also intends to inflate the NSG track and field numbers by including athletes participating in other sports.

    Advantage NSG.

    FREQUENCY:
    NSGs – Every two years
    USATF Outdoor Masters National Championships

    If you miss a year of USATF there is always next year. NSGs is every two years, so it might take priority when both meets occur during the same year.

    Advantage – Slight to NSGs

    LENGTH OF MEET:
    NSGs – Basically three days
    USATF Outdoor Masters National Championships – Basically four days (due to Pentathlon)

    Advantage: Toss up. However, for sprinters three days of 50m, 100m, 200m, 400m prelims and finals is BRUTAL. USATF has the better schedule.
    —–

    QUALIFYING:
    NSGs – Qualify at a State Senior Games the year before by placing 1 through 4th or meeting minimal qualifying marks.
    USATF Outdoor Masters National Championships – No qualifying, just pay entry fee.

    Advantage: Slight nod to USATF. Qualifying for NSG is way too easy, but if you miss out on your one state senior games, it means you have to go out of state to qualify.


    MEET RECORDS:

    NSG – Yes, AND a Website listing of the top ten all time perforance in each event and age group.
    USATF Outdoor Masters National Championships – Nothing, although at one time I thought the USATF Indoor Masters National Championship kept meet records at least back in 2004 or so.

    Advantage: Big Advantage to NSG. Why does USATF keep championship meet records for open competition but ignores masters?

  26. EM - July 10, 2015

    Competition:
    Senior Games are, and usually always have been, a less competitive meet than the USATF Nationals. There will always be a handful of top performers at NSG, but usually not the depth of competition as the USATF Masters Nationals. Compare the results. Plus, would you rather have a medal that says USATF or ‘Senior’?

    Advantage: USATF

  27. David E. Ortman (M62), Seattle, WA - July 10, 2015

    Response to #26.

    “Would you rather have a medal that says USATF or ‘Senior'”?

    Ummmm. Different forums/venues. Like asking open T&F athletes whether they would rather have an Olympic medal or a World Championship medal (here I’m thinking of the masters/senior equivalent of WMA vs. WMGs). I suppose the proper response is “Both”!

    As for “seniors,” I agree that NSG should really change its name to National Masters Games. What’s in a name? See my archives NMN column from 2001:

    http://ortmanmarchand.com/fs11.html

  28. Horace Grant - July 10, 2015

    Try breaking a record at the Senior Games…
    It may not count as a USATF record, unless things have changed!!

  29. David E. Ortman (M62), Seattle, WA - July 10, 2015

    Not to take anything away from Horace Grant’s tremendous races and times, there are still a number of USATF Championship marks that haven’t been accepted because of screwups with wind gauges and timing equipment. However, past episodes of NSG failing to get USATF sanctions (i.e. approval) for record purposes is really unforgivable.

  30. anonymous - July 10, 2015

    Maybe lack of drug testing at Senior Games?

  31. David E. Ortman (M62), Seattle, WA - July 10, 2015

    Response to #30:
    NSG Rule
    “X. NSGA Banned Substance Policy
    The NSGA does not currently test for banned or performance enhancing drugs. If an athlete
    is found to be using drugs by any other agency
    they will also be banned from future NSGA
    competitions.”

    Also, regarding Foreign Competition:
    NSG allows foreigners to complete and could displace ALL U.S. competitors in a final. Ummm, isn’t this a “National” Senior Games?

    USATF at least limits the number of foreign competitors who can displace U.S. competitors, but that is small consolation if you are the the seventh fastest U.S. in a prelim, but are knocked out of a final.

    Rule 332 (1)(g)”At National Track and Field Championships, the athletes advanced to the final in
    every event shall consist of at least 2/3rds
    who are USA affiliated as determined by
    WMA.”

    Advantage USATF.

  32. Dale Campbell - July 11, 2015

    I think that most will agree that we have some room for improvement. For this to take place demands some new ideas and new ways of looking at things. I know that some are opposed to having any night competition(certainly not distance runners) for the four day meet. I propose that we have a Friday night community emphasis. This evening could feature 4 X 100 relays with grandparents and grandchildren – we can be creative in how we breakdown the age divisions or have multiple divisions. Next we run the steeplechase races since they seem to be the one distance race that is run altogether instead of on separate days – easier for set-up. Then we have Special Olympics races – always the highlight of any gathering. We finish with a 4 X 400 grandparents and grandchildren race.
    Doing the same thing over and over will not result in positive change. Maybe it is time to look for some positive ways to mix-it-up a bit?!

  33. Shaaron Sellars - July 14, 2015

    This was my second NSG (I’m 52), and will be my 4th USATF National Championships. The 2 NSG meets have been disappointing, and I’m not sure I will attend in 2017. It’s a little too “loosey goosey” and inconsistent for my liking, something I’ve never experienced at the USATF National Championships. My passion is the javelin. In Minneapolis, both javelin runways were grass. The grass was so long, if you stood more than 10 feet from the metal foul line, you couldn’t see it hidden in the grass. The main runway got so heavily used and worn down in the center, one of the men in the 50-54 age group lost his footing, even with spikes. The inner runway markings were gone by the third day of competition.

    The men’s shot put ring was a piece of plywood with absolutely no glide to it (surprise!). Plywood. It was a shame-University of St. Thomas was a beautiful location. The cafeteria and the much-needed air conditioning was very much appreciated. I qualified and entered 6 field events and I chose to compete in 1, wanting to save myself from injury for Jacksonville. I say, first time (Cleveland), shame on NSG. Second time (Minneapolis), shame on me!

    Jacksonville, here I come, with excitement, optimism and anticipation, safe with the knowledge I’ll have quality facilities and competing under the USATF.

  34. Francois Boda - July 15, 2015

    I personally enjoyed my experience at the NSG this year. I thought the meet was very well organized and the competition level was good. Not everything was perfect but I thought there was a real effort to make sure athletes competed in the best possible conditions. I look forward to the next one.

  35. Herb Stein - July 15, 2015

    I entered the NSG javelin but didn’t make it due to a procedure I had on June 24 to correct an irregular heartbeat. Yesterday was the first day I was allowed to do anything more strenuous than lift my coffee cup. After reading the above post about the length of the grass on the javelin runways I’m not sorry I couldn’t make it. I’m not opposed to throwing on grass, in fact I’d rather throw on grass, but the surface needs to be smooth and the grass cut short. I just assumed that a national meet would have an artificial surface javelin runway and if I had gone, I probably wouldn’t have even bothered to take some longer spikes; sounds like I would have been in for a rude surprise.

  36. Paul Murphy - July 16, 2015

    The NSG entry fee is $140 (early). Unless you stay for the bowling, horse shoes, shuffleboard, pickle ball or disc golf, that’s a little steep for a track meet.

  37. Richelle Sipiora - July 17, 2015

    This was my first NSG and overall I was very happy with the experience. I was not happy with the discus venue. Really, concrete on what would be considered a fair throw? I thought the cage was ‘rotated” towards the left foul line. Several experienced throwers chunked it off the right cage poll. Also, just 3 throws and then finals? As a national meet, I would have expected more. Nevertheless, I will return in 2017.

  38. Joe Patridge II - July 17, 2015

    NSG is a social and political movement; its mandate is to promote an active and healthy lifestyle for seniors. Track and field is but one of 19 events to promote NSG’s agenda for seniors to remain active. Each senior games takes on a life of its own. The track at St Thomas University was comparable to other venues but the field events facilities were definitely sub-par. Originally the throws were scheduled to be held at another venue (no explanation given regarding the change). Despite the shortcomings I enjoy participating in the senior games and look forward to 2017 Games in Birmingham.

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