Coach Cleary still has some explaining to do
In an earlier post, I wondered aloud why all the women in the upcoming exhibition 1500 masters race at Carson nationals had times that end in .00. Now Mark Cleary — organizer of the masters events at nationals — gives an explanation. They’re mostly converted marks. (He says he subtracted 20 seconds from mile times to come up with 1500 times.) OK fine.
But I’m not quite satisfied. Mark was replying to a query I sent him asking for the dates and venues of the marks cited on the USATF Status of Entries page.
Here’s what Mark sez on the matter of marks submitted to USATF:
“Ken, you can find 90% of the information on masterstrack.com your familiar
with that website aren’t you???? Look at last years times on the list and
this years times on the list–that’s a good start–I don’t have the time to
spend time with a week to go giving an person that is trying to undermine
me information that is available at his own website–for your information I
use 20 seconds for mile times to convert to a 1500m time–My times for the
women are rounded because these posted times are listed really just for the
athletes to see what there competition has done. We allow them to use last
years time–but for new people on the scene that don’t have a time from last
season or are new to the 40’s the time is taken from 2005. Lisa Davis ran
her 4:54.1 hand time at Andy’s meet ( by the way I don’t see you saying
anything negative about his meet)–that had FAT that malfunctioned—Mary
Grene and Carrie Sherburne ran their times at the SCA Open Association
Champs at Oxy–the results are posted at the Association website. The other
girls have fast enough mile times from the exhibition race held at the
Indoor Open Nationals–I am done spending anymore time on this ridiculous
task of defending my integrity to you.Goodnight–Markâ€
OK, let’s parse this nonsense.
No. 1 — the USATF Web site that sets out rules for entry in masters exhibition races stipulates: “To apply for entry into masters invitational events, you must have met the following standards in 2005.â€
That means 2004 marks do not count.
No. 2 — Dave Clingan’s USATF masters rankings as of today show these women 40-and-up having made the 5:06 standard at 1500 or 5:26 standard at mile:
1500 METER RUN
4:43.31 TOYA REAVIS
4:49.06 MARY GRENE
4:55.07 CARRIE SHERBURNE
4:47.72 (indoors) SARAH KRAMER
4:54.92 (indoors) CATHERINE STONE-BORKOWSKI
4:48.6h (and 5:15.43 mile) LESLEY CHAPLIN-SWANN
5:03.29 CARLA HERVERT
ONE MILE RUN
5:17.86 LORRAINE JASPER
5:19.45 (indoors) SHERI WRIGHT
5:25.47 GILLIAN SHARP
5:23.95 (indoors) BARBARA GUBBINS
These 11 women — plus Lisa Davis at Saturday’s SCA meet — are the only women in the United States who have made the qualifying standard to my knowledge.
So technically, the following women have not yet qualified for the June 26 masters field at Carson nationals:
Karen Steen, Club Northwest
Mary Thane, Mountain West Track Club
Terri Cassel, Fleet Feet Sports Tulsa LLC
As for the men in the 110 hurdle exhibition at Carson nationals, Mark offers no supporting data (other than directing my attention to a Web site I’m familiar with).
So let’s review Dave Clingan’s hurdle list for 2005. According to the list, these men have met the 14.80 standard specified by USATF.
14.58 HENRY ANDRADE
14.79 DEXTER McCLOUD
In addition to these, I add Willie Gault (who ran a hurdle race Saturday, but whose time I haven’t yet seen. Very likely close to 14 seconds.)
That means these men have yet to meet the standard in 2005:
David Ashford, SoCal Track Club
Jerome Cadoret, Speedwest Track Club
John Hoyt, unattached
Thus six athletes — three men and three women — have been entered in races that USATF says they should not be eligible for. If 2004 marks were allowed, most of them would be in. Fine. But that’s not how USATF is playing this game.
So these thoughts arise:
In all other USATF nationals events, qualifying standards are observed to the letter. USATF even has an official checker — Glen McMicken — to verify marks submitted to USATF. So why treat masters differently? (Elite athletes wouldn’t dare submit rounded-off marks.)
Who negotiated the USATF qualifying standards for masters exhibitions? Does Mark Cleary have no responsibility in this area? Or is he oblivious to the rules spelled out on the application Web site?
Mark should have known that he’d have a hard time finding hurdlers under 14.80. But I’m aware of at least one effort by athletes to have a different event contested at Carson nationals — a 400-meter dash. That event has far more potential qualifiers than the 110 hurdles. Mark took a calculated risk and bonked.
Finally, what efforts have been made to invite all women under the 1500 or mile qualifying standard to Carson nationals? These women have met the standard but are not (yet) in the 1500 field:
TOYA REAVIS
SARAH KRAMER
CATHERINE STONE-BORKOWSKI
LESLEY CHAPLIN-SWANN
CARLA HERVERT
GILLIAN SHARP
BARBARA GUBBINS
Finally, I whip out my 2005 USA Track & Field membership card, flip it over and read the Athlete Membership Pledge, which says, in part: “I will abide by the rules and regulations of … USATF.â€
My question for Mark is simple:
Are you abiding by all of USATF’s rules and regulations?
7 Responses
Just tuned into the blog. I had never heard of Mark Cleary when he tracked me down on vacation to ask if I would run at the armory in an exhibition race at the USATF indoor Nationals. (1) I was impressed at the effort he put in to tracking me down (2) Almost all of the fastest M40 milers were in the field (3)It was a great experience participating in a top class meet.
In 2004 I participated in a M40 1000m in Boston at the Nationals. There were none of Mark’s team in the race.
As for selection of events, as far as I know, there has been an M50 event and I believe it is fair to broaden it to events like the hurdles.
What’s my point : In my experience, the program is an excellent addition to the masters program and is well executed. There are some glaring deficiencies in US track (the total dizorganiztion of the NY area USATF (MAC) is one). The Invitational program does not need fixing.
Ken, again you are missing some information. If you go to the Masters Invitational webpage you can click on results and see that Steen won the 2005 indoor invitational mile race in 5:08.12, Thane Was 2nd in 5:08.41 and Cassel ran 5:19.45–all under the time standard so there goes your theory on that one.Also for your information Toya Reavis, Sarah Kramer, Catherine Stone Borkowski, Carla Hervert, Gillian Sharp and Barbara Gubbins were invited. They declined for various reasons.Mark
Wow…is it my imagination or is there some “beef” between Ken Stone and Mark Cleary? If so, I don’t think that this is the appropriate forum for such vitriole. Ken, I know this is your site, and you certainly have editorial license to do with it as you will. However, I check out the site so I can get information on Masters track not the DRAMA that we’ve had to witness.
As for the hurdler qualifying times – I can’t speak for every hurdler but I know that David Ashford, like myself, usually only competes in open hurdle events. Why? Simply because we can’t find the level of competition we need when running in Masters hurdles races. I believe that David has run in the low 14’s over 42 inches. So, I’m sure that USATF could convert his time.
The point – Aside from the Nationals, the faster hurdlers NEVER get a chance to experience any real competition. My concern is that with this constant bickering, USATF may choose to take a “hands off” approach with Masters track competitions at the Nationals.
You’re cutting off OUR nose to spite your face…
The U.S. T&F website Ken references says:
Masters Application Information
“Men and women age 40 and up may apply to compete in the masters men’s 110m hurdles or masters women’s 1500m as part of the USATF Masters Invitational Program. See the schedule of events for start times.”
“To apply for entry into masters invitational events, you must have met the following standards in 2005. Fully automatic timing (F.A.T.) is the only method of timing acceptable for qualifying marks. Relay splits may not be used for qualifying.”
As previously mentioned, there is no hope for 99% of masters and no hope for 100% of master hurdlers over say 50 to ever be considered for such a race.
However, I believe that Ken has left an incorrect impression that because the “rules” are posted on the U.S. T&F website that they are somehow rules adopted by U.S. T&F or even U.S. Masters T&F. If so, then some evidence of how they were adopted and voted on should be provided. Otherwise I believe we should assume that these are not U.S. T&F or masters T&F “rules” but merely a way of screening out the field to eight lanes (since no one will run preliminaries). I don’t have a problem with that so long as they aren’t posted as something other than a screening device for a particular meet and it is recognized that exhibitions for 40 year-olds do not really showcase of what master athletes are capable.
To MR.STONE im asking you man to man to please keep my name out of your not so positive refernces to me david ashford out of your political circus its not called for.Look at the positive,i came on to the masters track scene to try to one better the sport,also having a goal to bring more interest to masters track for atheletes with past accompilshments in performaces,and bring a positive light to our sport,and no disrepect to the other hurdlers ive been excited after a few of my performances ,in puerto rico when how many runners can say they broke a world record against the reining world champion,and the world record holder in the final of the world masters championships its what dreams are made of,no disrepect to mr karl smith much repect.OK i was once again very happy in eugene in 2004 because i ran 13.86 again under the world record time ,again no disrespect to the other hurdlers excuberence and joy not showboating,in decatur i made a honest attempt to give respect to dexter karl and the others in the race,so please dont refer me to as being cocky just trying to get the respect that i feel is due you have to admit 13.73 is not a soft performace for a man 40 years of age Please im asking you to give me the respect as a representive with pride for us track and all that i stand for tell the real facts,this is the same humble guy who has been doing charity work on weekends,getting dunked in dunk tanks to raise money for the ronald mcdonald house,and spending time trying to bring interest to our sport to the youth ,so they to can experince the purest sport,run jump throw. Ken look at my consistancy 4 straight us masters championhips outdoor baton rouge,orno,eugene,decatur and of course a world record over the 39 inch hurdle and a pending world best over the 42 inch 13.97,which is reconized by usatf stats 2004,respect to mr kingdom his mark is not reconized by the iaaf or the usatf for 2004 which means 13.97 would be the world record over the 42 inch barrier by me. In confidence im very prepared for carson,my speed has been enhanced,which this being a world championship year speed is of the utmost i will not only step it up i will win and will step it up big time,not being cocky but the reality is the world record holder is super ready,also i do have a 2005 performace over the 42 inch barrier which is faster than any of the other entrants,in the masters invitational 39inch or 42 inch.I will close by saying its time for performance,its 110 meters to the finish and with respect to MR GAULT ,MR ANDRADE MR HOYT, MR MCCLOUD GOD BLESS AND MAY THE BEST MAN WIN,be ready to bring your best performance against me this is personal and a point must be proven,and it will . thanks MR STONE. SINCERLY DAVID ASHFORD THE CURRENT BEST MASTERS HURDLER OF ALL TIME, WR.13.73 PENDING 13.97 .GODSPEED ALL
Just some comments to recent postings
Conor good running and the MAC has some serious problems—- being athlete friendly for one—- oh check the entries for 2004 Invitational SoCal members entered but did not come to Boston
Kenny Stone —- you can check out my response to MC on June 5th blog
Dexter McCloud— bickering— what bickering —-if you want bickering attend the USATF convention. Have you seen anything constructive come out of that organization???? And at your age if you want comp run open or head to San Sebastian
David Ortman —change your birth certificate —- amen
David Ashford—- met you in PR and the 11O’s was truly a great race and reason to celebrate — you were just as reved up in the 4X100— we need some juice —- I think Ken has to learn the term freedom of expression
Interesting “banter”!!
For the record, with regard to the invitational masters runs at USATF nationals both indoor and outdoor, the reason I have not participated has nothing to do with Mark Cleary but rather USATF rules. I am in the process of completing my US citizenship ( just waiting on my final interview).
Per USATF rules, I am ineligible to compete in these inivitational races. Mark has contacted me to compete but until my citizenship is complete, I am ineligible. My current citizenship status isalso the reason that my 2.22.78 at Indoor Nationals did not count for the new American record.
I do look forward to competing as a US citizen and being eligible to compete in invitational races, and setting new American records.
Sincerely
Lesley Chaplin-Swann
Leave a Reply