Above the Norm and below the belt? Seed times should be legit
Norm Harding of the United States has submitted marks of 10.70 seconds in the 100 and 21.70 for the deuce at Sacramento worlds. That would raise eyebrows even in the M35 age group. But Norm is an M60 sprinter. Oy vey. Not again. This recurring problem of bogus seed times — probably from their college years — has to stop. It misleads the press and frustrates fellow athletes. And I can’t find hide nor hair of him on the Web. Anyone know Norm? Bill Collins is a slam dunk to double here, however.
19 Responses
Sounds reasonable to me.
Ken, we can tell these times are not simply typos because there are two of them and they go pretty well together. Someone who runs 10.70 in the 100 SHOULD be able to run 21.70 in the 200.
I don’t know Norm, but if he can run these times he will beat Bill Collins, Charles Allie, and the others in M60 very easily indeed. But I think the chances that the times are legit are about the same as the odds that I could spot Roger Federer two sets in tennis and then beat him 6-0, 6-1, 6-0 to close out the match.
all very amusing untill real advantage is gained in heat placement and lane asignment.
oh … and Norm’s seed time for the 400 is 49.0
Those could be times from the Nintendo track and field game. I once got 12.28 in the highs!
I think I will go ahead and update my mark to 18′ 1″ for the M55 pole vault for Sacramento. I think those sprint marks must be times from the past.
A lot of meets I vault in ask you to submit your opening height rather than your best vault. Some ask for your best mark in the past six months. That clears the air pretty fast.
Ha! I didn’t check the 400. Is he down for the high jump with a 7-0?
Not sure why the seed times even matter. For those of you that don’t know. The first round is a blind draw. He could have the fastest time in the age group and get any lane in the first round. The thought is that if he is that good then it won’t matter which lane he is in. Once you have a time from the event. Then they use that time to start seeding the rest of your rounds. So you can turn in a bogus time. Still get put in a heat with some of your fastest competition. If you not able to run close to your seed time it won’t matter because you won’t make it out. You don’t help yourself in any way by lying about your seed time. You don’t necessarily hurt yourself by putting in no time (NT) because of the same reason.
R. Thomas: Read Ken’s blog from Feb.25,2011 Titled “Silly season…” concerning seeded times
I think that there are outrageous seed times for many other age groups. I am surprised at the times that other people have put down. When you research them, you can’t find them or they were from more than 4 years ago.
Well, it sure is a big old mystery. I just looked at the WMA site again, and it says in bold red letters:
Registration is closed. No further entries will be accepted. Personal information and entry marks can no longer be updated. No exceptions.
I examined in detail the M50 400, which has 73 entrants, ranging from Michael Sullivan (52.06) to Ronald Roulhac (1:17.00). Six athletes have no times. But with the first round conducted as a blind draw, Sullivan would be given no preference over Roulhac.
Thus, one might ask why the great emphasis on entry marks and the fact that they can no longer be updated? Personally, I have no knowledge of how the 400-dash entries will be handled, what the rules of advancement will be, or even how many rounds there will be (assume there will be three in the M50 400).
Here’s my silly season entry:
http://masterstrack.com/2011/02/17633/
Not sure of your point Panama Kid. Again in the end if the athlete is slow and turns in a fast time, thinking that they are going to get a preferred lane or in a slower heat. There lack of ability or talent will show itself very quickly. That’s my point.
Here’s the point: If I remember correctly (and I’m old so it’s tough), although it’s a blind draw for lanes within the prelim heat the seed times figure into the sorting of athletes into the heats. You don’t want to lump your fastest athletes into one heat; you want to spread them out among the heats. The advantage of submitting an overly fast seed time is being sorted into a prelim heat without other faster athletes. You are considered the fast athlete. If the first 2 advance you got yourself a better chance of making it through to the next round, but that’s when performance comes into play and the lesser lights will be squeezed out when the 2nd round runs. Wishful seed times will help a less-talented athlete advance from the first round into the next. If there are only two rounds this could give someone a better chance of making the final.
Very interesting. Thank you, Robert Thomas and Texas Tornado. With the very long extensions of the original entry deadline, I could see the following worst-case scenario:
Someone we will call Chester Fitzgerald enters the M50 400 and even before his entry is accepted he starts bragging to his friends that he will medal in Sacramento. He is not really aware of how fast the M50 athletes are.
As it turns out, 8 athletes entered M50 with a time of 53.60 or better. Based on Sacramento 2010 nationals, 8 lanes will be used for the 400. Let’s say that there are 9 scratches at Worlds, leaving 64 runners for the preliminary M50 round (8 heats of 8 runners).
To protect himself, at the last minute Mr. Fitzgerald changes his seed time to 52.05, making him the top seed and guaranteeing that he will not have to run against any of the top 7 runners in the opening round, as those competitors plus Mr. Fitzgerald will go into different heats (according to the scenario from Texas Tornado).
This indeed gives Mr. Fitzgerald more chance to get into the semifinal (assuming there are 3 rounds). Personally, I would never do it, but I can see the advantage of guaranteeing that you don’t have to go against the fastest runners in round 1. As for the blind draw for lanes, that is not a big problem, as I (personally) think that only lane 8 is a problem in the 400.
If you make the semi, you then have to (a) run the race of your life or (b) hope that there are some lane violations for the other runners. Oh, well, could happen, I guess.
R.Thomas: Was hoping that you would have read the WHOLE THING without me citing references.Texas Tornado and Pedro Taylor summarized it well, but the TRUTH WILL come out in the SEMIS-SO WHY LIE
Ken want A good one check the SEEDS for the M50 DECATHLON AT MOST 8 HAVE OVER 7000 POINTS SOME ARE USA THAT I KNOW WONT SCORE LOW 5000
hay ken check out the entrees in the M50 DECATHLON score points are over the top at most 8 put in scores over 7000 one in the 8, some usa
I always forgive first time entrants as these newbies may not be familiar with the application form. PB? Age-group PB? SB? last year’s SB? most recent 30 meter fly time?
Panama Kid said it right – the truth will come out in the rounds.
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