Let masters throw the same weights at all ages?
Besides being a world-class masters athlete, Bud Held is a scholar of the sport with special authority on the throws. Today he responds to some proposed changes in the masters implements. Bud begins: “Norm Deep has done some good work and his arguments make a lot of sense.” But after much thought, Bud concludes: “I am an advocate of all masters using the same weight implements at all ages.”
The rest of Bud’s note:
“A glance at the record book verifies his argument that high school athletes are superior to 50-year-old masters. High school athletes develop much faster than masters decline. Four years of their development is equivalent to 30 or 40 years of masters decline, so it is a little harder to know where the average high school athlete is.
“Relative to the record book, high school athletes appear to be pretty close to 40-year-old masters in throwing events (after adjusting for implement weights) and noticeably superior in the running and jumping events.
“Norm’s weight schedule makes good sense, and I think his comment about ‘personal satisfaction’ is important. Maintaining an interest in track and field is largely dependent on the feeling of satisfaction with performance. Adding a weight change level to the M40-49 will help stimulate interest.
“I note that Norm does not include the javelin in his proposal, which is really okay because going down in javelin weight does not add as much satisfaction as going down in discus, shot or hammer weight. When I went from the 800g javelin to the 600g javelin I experienced more frustration than satisfaction.
“The 600g javelin is 25% lighter than the 800g javelin and I expected some considerable better distance, but try as I would, the best distance advantage I could get was 9% (I often tested them one after the other in workouts). Larry Stuart also expressed the same frustration. His best was even less than 9% better. My 9% distance improvement could not overcome the frustration of the poor flight characteristics of the 600g javelin.
“Even with the new spec. 800g javelin it is possible to get some good aerodynamic lift with a properly launched 50 to 60 meter throw, but no matter how perfectly I would launch a 600g javelin and watch with great anticipation I would see it drop though the atmosphere like a wounded duck.
“The problem only gets worse with the 500g javelin, and with the 400g javelin, one might as well throw a 400g rock as far as the flight characteristics are concerned. If I were still competing at age 78 (can’t do javelin now because of worn out knees), I would prefer to throw the 800g javelin.
“The problem with the lighter javelins is not with the weight, but with the design. The rules committee that established the specifications are apparently neither engineers nor javelin throwers. My brother, Dick Held, who was the pioneer and master of modern javelin design worked with the committee for years to get specs. approval for more ‘throw-able’ javelins, but with little success.
“The aerodynamic lift of a javelin is primarily related to the ratio of the projected, or shadow area, to the weight. That ratio is .58 for the 800g javelin and .53 for the 600g javelin (using maximum allowable dimensions). This loss of lift is at the heart of the problem. It would have been a simple matter to make the maximum diameter the same 30mm for all javelins.
“This would have solved the flight problem nicely and even made it easier to manufacture them. The rules committee, however, seems to think that if a javelin is shorter and lighter, it must also be smaller in diameter. The consequence of such thinking is a frustrating javelin.
“Strangely enough, the committee did not do the same thing to the discus. The shadow area to weight ratio of the discus actually increases as the weight decreases. The ratio for the 2k discus is .19 and ratio of the 1k is .26.
“Even though these ratios are somewhat lower than for javelins, the discus has a much more efficient aerodynamic shape than the javelin so that this ratio increase provides significant satisfaction for the older discus thrower. Even at 20 to 30 meters a good flight makes a significant difference in distance.
“Having stated all the above, I am an advocate of all masters using the same weight implements at all ages. Throwing an implement isn’t all that much different than throwing ones body over a bar or into the long jump pit. Jumpers don’t get a new lighter weight body every few years to throw around.
“Even runners, for the most part keep running the same distances. Jumpers’ heights and distances just keep getting lower and lower every year and runners times keep getting slower and slower. They don’t get discouraged and quit; they just accept it and and go on. Why should the throwers be the only privileged group in masters track and field?
“Let the 90-year-old men throw the 16 lb. shot. All the masters women have been throwing the same discus since the beginning of masters track and field. I think all masters throwers should be on an equal footing when it comes to implement weight. That way we can monitor our decline rate better and know where we really stand with regard to fitness.”
7 Responses
As an occassional thrower, I like the idea of a standard weight for implements. It has a lot of advantages but I do suggest that the high school shot is a better choice than the 16 pound open shot.
Injury prevention is an important reason for decreasing the weights. I find the open weights are very hard on my body. I have been playing with the 600 g javelin because I will turn 60 next year. I have not thrown one since college ( I stopped throwing the spear because of shoulder and elbow injuries). I was delighted that I could throw it with only a few aches and pains.
However, changing weights causes problems for statisticians. This can be compensated for by comparing performances in athletes who change from one group to the next. I have competed in meets in the discus where I threw the 2 kg and 1.5 in the same flight. At the UC Irvine masters meet about 7 years ago I threw 161 ft with the 2 kg discus and 182 ft with the 1.5. Al Oerter threw 205 with the 1.5 and 185 with the 2 kg discus in the same season. Ralph Fruegetti is getting about the same differential: 194 vs 172. Same for Peter Gordon of England when he was throwing.
Also, there are throwers like Wendell Palmer, Carl Wallen, Richard Cochran, Bob Humphreys, Bob Ward, and Larry Pratt who never stopped competing. We could calculate an accurate regression from their performances.
FR: David E. Ortman (M53) Seattle, WA
I wrote a “False Start” column on this topic back in 1999.
http://www.geocities.com/ortmanmarchand/fs6.html
And actually on July 5th at an all-comers meet I threw a discus over 100 ft. for the first time ever. Of course, it was now the 1.5k discus, but, contrary to my column, I was a little bit happy.
Regarding the weight of throwing implements.I fully understand frustration of Bud Held and other top world class throwers , competing in the masters.Boris Zajtchouk( first man over 80m in hammer) really hated to throw 6kg in the competitions .These guys are different from us, 95% of the master throwers.We are ordinary athletes , who were never good for olympics or world championshops .But we love to train, compete and throw the lighter implements, as it is safer, more fun and shows fine technique instead a brute force, which is dominant in the USA.Look at Carl Wallin , he can throw hammer very far , but using one spin only .Is he a good hammer thrower? NO! He is very powerful man with no technique .Do you see world class hammer throwers using only one spin?Never.
I am relatively short man( 5’6″ ) but strong and fast .That I have won medals at the world masters championships .I have just( at the age of 71 improved canadian record for the 39 time .In everyage category I am throwing app. same distance and this is the beauty of lighter weights .My best results are 16lb 49.50( in 1954), 6kg 4880 at 56years , 52.62 with 5kg at the age of 64,Now at the age of 71 I am closing on 50m again( last sunday 48.85m).I throw with 3 spins and I look like a hammer thrower , not like a powerlifter with molasses on the shoes.
I am happy that WMA is run by the Europeans and they do not like this nonsense.
Sincerely Emil Muller
Thanks a lot for that awfully great column!
I AM A 72 YEAR OLD WHO HAS JUST STARTED THROWING THE 500G JAVELIN. IT IS A VERY FRUSTRATING EXPERIENCE AND I COULD THROW THE 700G 135 FEET AND THE 500G 100FEET.
I AGREE THAT A THICKER BODY AND EVEN LONGER SHAFT WOULD BE BENEFICIAL–I AM ALWAYS AFRAID OF HITTING MY FACE WITH THE POINT AS I HAVE VERY LONG ARMS.
I DO NO ENJOY THROWING THE JAVELIN
I DO ENJOY THROWING THE SHOT (4KG) AND 1 KG DISCUS
LBARRY
SAN DIEGO
DO LIKE THE SCOTTISH GAMES. ONE WEIGHT FOR ALL OPEN ONE CLASS FOR ALL., AND ONE LIGHT WEIGHT, FOR ALL MASTERS, REGARDLESS OF AGE. MAKES SENCE TO ME. ASIDE FROM THAT, I COULD NOT UNDERSTAND WHY LADIES, THROW THE SAME WEIGHT FROM GRADE SCHOOL TO THE WORLDS. A GUY A GUY IS 8 LBS IN GRADE SCHOOL, IN CALIFORNIA OR AT LEAST NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, 10 LBLS IN THE 9TH AND 10TH GRADES,THEN 12 LBS IN THE 11TH AND 12TH, THEN 16 LBS IN THE WORLDS. YEA MAKE IT LIGHTER AND THE SAME FOR ALL MASTERS, ONE STEP DOWN. I BET THE RETAILERS, WON’T LIKE TO HEAR THIS.
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