Masters age-group world records you can trust — posted at last
Andy Hecker, the Masters Rebel with a Cause, has outdone himself this time. Instead of joining the Greek chorus complaining about WMA’s fatally flawed world records, he’s started his own list. Check this page out. Andy is updating age-goup WRs via Wikipedia — a site that exploits the wisdom of crowds. This means that marks ignored by WMA, or rejected for some nonsense technicality, will finally have a place in the sun. Bravo for Andy. Best of all, anyone can correct and update this page. The tradeoffs are obvious. But without some place to honor our best marks, we’re left with WMA’s records. Unacceptable.
39 Responses
Andy, what do we have on Bob Cuzons? I’m being told that he was world champ last year at 400. He would surely be in his 70s. Smartty
Amazing job by Andy. I like the touch of “awaiting ratification” shown by the blue color. In many cases that must be for humorous effect. For example, Allen Johnson’s M35 world mark of 12.96 in the 1996 Olympics (110 hurdles) is revealed to be awaiting ratification. Right.
More recently, we see that Olympian Monica Joyce’s world mark (2009 Mt. SAC Relays) for the 5000 (16:19.51 in W50) is “awaiting ratification.” Really? Neither of these, nor many of the other blue marks, will ever be ratified in my opinion. I blame the system, not any one person.
Of course, others will disagree, saying there is no problem at all with the system. If only Allen Johnson had carried a form to the Olympic finals, then walked around the stadium begging officials to sign it after he ran 12.96, then gotten the photo, he would probably have gotten his record. I don’t think that’s the way.
But this is very fine way for adding all unratified but nevertheless believable records. Make them blue and they are visible for us all.
Agree completely, Weia. It makes them stand out for the reader (while at the same time, for me, having a humorous effect in many cases).
PT
I made some minor corrections and additions of all Dutch athletes in the list. Added also an M70 mile that is approved as national record but not as world record, no idea why. I’ll ask.
When from every country someone looks for corrections and additions we end with something extraordinary!
I don’t have any magic sources to discover performances that have never been heard of before. Quite the opposite, we hold our meets in public venues before (OK, dozens of) witnesses. If there weren’t qualified witnesses, otherwise known as officials, to insure that the events are conducted properly, these marks wouldn’t be valid. Results are published and posted on the internet. What this takes is for someone to read those results and compare them to the list. There is a column for you to place the reference–if you don’t know how to edit new information into wikipedia, please just send it to me.
This list will always be a work in progress. Records are made to be broken. I keep finding typos, misspellings, inconsistencies or just incomplete information. I haven’t bothered to include other marks I found that are not up to standard; like sprint marks with no wind reading, throws that were determined to be on a sloping field etc. On the other hand, some of the official records don’t seem to have a wind reading posted anywhere, others didn’t agree with the published results. But who knows what is accurate. I found marks that only show a time accurate to .1 of a second, posted as an official record accurate to .01. More information might have existed. Somebody who was involved with the record knows more than I do.
I’ve fired off e-mails asking for more information, you know, the kind of thing you wish the authorities would do. When we learn more information that might invalidate a mark, I think there should be an addition to the list to publicly explain those deficiencies, again just like you wish the grown ups would do. For those missing wind events, that might be the next thing to do. This could be a group effort, click the star at the top of the page and you can add it to your watchlist to see any edits. With a bunch of people watching we can keep the bad information out and make this a great resource.
Wasn’t Allen Johnson 25 when he ran the ’96 Atlanta Olympics? I see he was born in 1971. But, in 2006, he did run a 12.96.
Another list, another mess!
Nobody in the decathlon has run or jumped or throwed points but seconds and centimeters (or inches). So the list on the decathlon, pentathlon etc. means nothing.
And where are the weights of the implements? Where are the DOB of the athletes?
The list is only in part better then the list on the wma site.
Oh, yes, we can do it step by step…
Oh, yes, I know: “wiki” means fast…oh, yes.
Pino Pilotto, member of the greek chorus
This is a public work in progress. Mistakes probably still exist. There are plenty of loose ends to chase. I can add that stuff, you can add that stuff too.
Gracias, Fidel.
In my comment I should have said I doubted that Olympian Allen Johnson’s 12.96 at age 35 will ever be accepted for the 110 hurdles world standard (I relied on the original text this morning).
One mark I would love to see go up there is Kathy Bergen’s 14.76 FAT in the 100 (wind -0.3 mps) in the Mt. San Antonio College (Mt. SAC) Relays on April 17 of this year.
I have watched the race on video many times (and hand-timed it in the 14s); it was reported by Mt. SAC in its official results for event 614 as 14.76; there appear to have been at least two starters for a 3-woman race (facilitating recall); the meet had to have been sanctioned, etc.; and yet it never made world record status.
Am not technically proficient enough to make the entry on the Wikipedia site.
Pedro
Peter, what is the location of Mt Sac?
Mt. San Antonio College (Mt. SAC)
1100 North Grand Avenue
Walnut, California 91789
Kathy’s record performance, of course, is noteworthy because the listed world mark for W70 is 15.16 by the great Margaret Peters of New Zealand. When I tell my friends at the fitness club that a woman 70 years old ran the 100 in 14.76 they are truly impressed — they know 100-meter times.
PT
I wanted to add Kathy but she is already in the list. The video shows she got even injured during the last strides!
Andy also added nearly all birth dates. Great work!
Weia, I think what happened is that between the time Ken Stone posted this item and the time you went to add Kathy, someone else posted Kathy’s 14.76. You will note that whoever did that did not use the blue background.
I watched the video of this historic race several times today, even in slow motion for perhaps the last 30 meters. What is so impressive is that Kathy finished only about 10 meters behind Joy Upshaw, a top-flight sprinter in W45. Joy ran 13.06, and Kathy probably completed the last 10 meters in about 1.70 seconds, as she lost some momentum because of the injury (of course, she averaged 1.476 seconds per 10 meters for the race overall).
That would have given her a final time of 14.76 seconds. According to the official results of the 2010 Mt. SAC Relays, Kathy’s time was exactly 14.76. Tomorrow it will be 6 months since this wonderful performance, and I just checked usatf.org: no mention of the record. However, I am informed by a confidential source that the record will be shown as accepted in the near future. Wonderful news.
MR Peter Taylor ,your knowledge and expertise speaks for itself i hold you in such high respect,please tell me,who holds the world record for the m40 110 42 inch hurdles since it was posted on the previous wma site and only few men have run 13.something at 40 years young,thank you .
Dave, I believe he went to West Covina HS and ran the 42-inch 110 hurdles in 13.96 as an M40 competitor. Name of David Ashford, I believe.*
PT
* Of course, hurdles are not my specialty.
Dave, I will wait for your answer. I really know only the records for the heights we normally run (39″ for M40 and M45, for example).
PT
I’m continuing to add content and format to the page. I’ve been wearing out google trying to track down information. If you see something missing and know the information (and where it is posted), please add it with a reference or send it to me and I’ll post it. Unfortunately, though Ken’s site is a wealth of information, lots of search results pointing at his site go to dead pages–that reformatting a while back lost content, sorry Ken.
Regarding Kathy Bergen’s record, Christel Donley did just that. She relayed that Sandy had approved both Kathy’s 100m record and her own Heptathlon record. They were merely waiting for someone to post the latest update to the WMA site and on that I posted them as official.
And folks, if there is something else out there to post, we can put it in as well. Records in non-standard events, old implements etc. can be created on another page (because this one is rather full).
Right now, I’ve pulled the multi-events out of the main page to try to do some deeper level formatting to show the scoring. They will be back.
How do Linford Christie have the world record in the, 35.m 100m, 200m, 60.m when at that age and time he was dopin, could some 1 help me understand,
Joe, Christie never failed an in-competition test, and the circumstances of the test he failed after he’d retired are disputed. So, what’s your evidence that “he was doping”? Who says others were not? For better or for worse, it is the result of tests at the time that count.
Tom,,, christie was ban for 2 years for failin a test at a track meet in 1999 , germany, the drug nandrolone, it was a indoor meet, at that time was 37, an he was competing.
The calculation is not difficult: 1995 is not 1999.
Hmm… I was critic (point 8.) about the list.
But now I have to apologize.
The list becomes better and better.
Thanks to Andrew Hecker an all the other co-workers!
GREAT WORK! Thank You!
I hope to be soon able to collaborate (but unfortunately I am not so clever with the computer and wiki-things – but I try to learn…) and maybe I can add some details.
I think, it is also important to get the collaboration of Filippo Fasolato and Werter Corbelli from atleticanet.it. I will try to contact them…
It is nice to see Bernard Lagat’s 5000m from this summer listed for m35. How about adding Bernard Lagat’s m35 1500m time of 3:32.51in Monaco on July 22, 2010 and his m35 3000m time of 7:29.00 run at Rieti, Italy on August 29, 2010?
Hi Matt (and others), put remarks like this on the ‘discussion’ page, then ‘new section’ (above right), give it a title like ‘Lagat’ and add text. Some day they will be included!
You do not have to be logged in or wiki-experienced to do this.
Hi Weia!
Thank you very mutch, this (25.) is very helpful!
pino pilotto,
not wiki-experienced but admirer of a certain “Nederlande-high-jump-website”
And it worked, Lagat is added to the list by Andy!
Thanks Pino…
Thanks Weia! I took your advice and added Lagat to the Wiki discussion tab. having never contributed to a Wiki page before I never noticed the discussion tab. Very useful, and as you noted, the marks were quicky added too!
When you end with four ~ it looks even more perfect.
I’m adding to it as I can and as I find out new information. Its all there if you google hard enough, but its easier with tips so I know what to look for.
(Andy, what do we have on Bob Cuzons? I’m being told that he was world champ last year at 400. He would surely be in his 70s. Smartty)
This is Bob Cozens (not Cuzons) I won the 70-74 200m at the World Games, Sydney last year. I live in Houstion, Texas and compete with Houston Elite.
Are you the Smartt that attended Uni. of Houston?
Warmest regards
Bob Cozens
Andy, once again I say congratulations to you. What a thrill it is to see the world recordholders get their recognition after they established legitimate marks this year or in previous years, marks that never made the list at usatf.org.
In my dreams I see a comparable effort for American outdoor marks. Just looked at the results for Event 620 (100-meter dash) in the 2007 Mt. SAC Relays. Big as life I saw Aaron Thigpen’s name; he ran 10.60 FAT that day with a legal wind.
How wonderful it would be to see Aaron’s mark posted as an M40 American record. As you know, despite his efforts to obtain ratification his record never got there (to the USATF Web site), lost with legions of others. A shame.
American Records are next, but no plan on when . . . unless someone else wants to jump ahead of me.
Thank you, Andy. I don’t have the time or technical ability to do it myself. How about this for a rule (might be important to me and just a few others, however): If a listed record is no longer believed to be in the top 10 of credible performances the box would show NRD (no record determined).
I certainly know of one mark that would have to be changed to NRD; after that, a group could determine which of the many times/distances/heights that did not gain accepted status should be listed as the standard.
Pete,
That would certainly apply to the American Record Open Division Women’s 4×100 Relay. USATF lists it as 4×100 m Relay 42.36 by Texas A&M University: (Khrystal Carter, Porscha Lucas, Dominique Duncan, Gabby Mayo) in Fayetteville, AR Seriously how many american teams have run better, in the Olympics (they have gotten the baton around successfully a few times), World Championships, even at Mt. SAC and Penn? Surely one of those faster teams was composed of 4 members who were not tainted by a drug suspension–at least 4 who weren’t caught. But I digress again. Its not just Masters. I’ll save the American Records until mid-December or so, to give them a chance to get ratified at the convention (and maybe, maybe even posted . . . . nah).
Yes, it would certainly apply there, a big fat “NRD” for “no record determined.” Once the number gets above 10 (i.e., the number of times the listed mark has been broken in a major meet) it does get a little strange. Confusing as well for those who want to break that “mark.”
With you shaking things up in Dec or January, we are in good hands, I am sure. I guess I am in the wrong field — over the last 15 years the great majority of my work has been for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). There the interest often concerns outcomes — do people fare better with approach A or approach B (in terms of lower mortality, less morbidity, longer lives, etc.)?
Unfortunately, through no one’s fault, really, what we have seen in the last few years in masters T&F seems to be an inattention to outcomes. Are the legitimate records getting ratified, and are the illegitimate marks getting discarded? We have a poor outcome on the first issue (many legitimate marks are never recognized) and a good one on the second (illegitimate marks usually do not get recognized). Seems like our “approach” is not the right one.
Oh, well.
PT
What is the record for m 35 -39 age, 55.m, or the american record could someone help me.
Joe,
They don’t keep official records for 55, just 60. Non-standard events, much less Indoor events, are a whole new can o’ worms.
Andrew thanks,
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