More vault world records vanish in USATF-sanction swamp
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Flo Meiler and Don Pellmann came away from this month’s National Senior Games pleased and proud — both having broken world records in the pole vault for their age groups. In Palo Alto, Flo went 6-7 at age 75 and Don went 5-1 3/4 at 93. But like Kay Glynn’s never-to-be-WR in 2007, set at a USATF association meet in nearby Los Gatos, Flo and Don’s marks were made in the Bermuda Triangle of vaulters. Their records won’t be accepted for the same reason: The meet lacked a USATF sanction. How can a major national event featuring dozens of USATF officials and thousands of entrants bungle such a simple detail? I’m still seeking answers.
More than a week ago, I e-mailed the meet’s co-chairs — Joy Upshaw Margerum and Rick Milam — asking about rumors that the meet didn’t have a USATF sanction.
Joy didn’t reply. But Rick sent me a series of breezy but cryptic updates, culminating in a forward yesterday from NSG administrative director Susie Thom, who wrote: “Ray Hoyt just called at 8:30 a.m. and asked me to let you all know that he talked with the Track & Field folks this morning regarding sanctioning of the competition. He said they are in the final stages of this and it’s pretty much a ‘done deal.’ ”
Done deal? What planet are they on?
Ray Hoyt is the director of national games and athlete relations for the National Senior Games Association. But he appears clueless about USATF policies. Susie’s note suggests that the NSGA is applying for an after-the-fact USATF sanction.
That won’t happen. It would set a precedent that USATF wouldn’t touch with a 14-foot Pacer pole. It also would open up a can of worms about numerous other age-group records nullified in recent years for lack of a meet sanction.
Susie Thom’s note also was sent to LOC president and CEO Anne Cribbs, competition director Scott McRoberts and LOC managing director Jurgen Padberg — an indication that all the bigwigs are being kept in the loop. Good. It’s that serious.
I’ve written to USATF masters track records chair Sandy Pashkin, asking what she knows about this National Senior Games sanctioning issue. No reply yet.
So here we go again — celebrating the heights of athletic achievement only to learn about the depths of organizational incompetence.
The National Senior Olympics meet was held at Stanford, where some of the nation’s brightest collegians pursue degrees. Wish some of that brilliance rubbed off on the NSGA and USATF. The National Senior Games couldn’t care less about USATF niceties, but its meet directors should have known better. USATF couldn’t care less about the National Senior Games, but its leadership is betraying the world-class athletes who compete there.
Anselm LeBourne’s masters advocacy group has spotlighted this dysfunctional relationship, and this is a perfect example of where the groups need to be talking.
Aside from the drop-the-ball insanity of a missing meet sanction, we need to address a criminally crazy records process. Major meets (and the biennial NSG counts as one) should be guaranteed slam-dunk ratification of world and American records set.
If the “done deal” falls through, Ray Hoyt or the meet directors should contact Don and Flo and let them know why their records will never make the books. Don and Flo paid good cash money to travel and compete in the NSG.
If their records are denied, they deserve a full refund — and a major apology.
32 Responses
Everyone who set a record should have their money refunded. Meet sanctioning is on the first page of a meet directors “to do list”. It really is inexcusable at any level.
The Sprint Force America M70 team is still wondering why our 4×100 record set at Penn Relays in 2008 never got approval. The Penn Relays should be an automatic record.
I will let my name hang out in cyberspace – I have said it and written it before – NSG is NOT a substitute for a well run USATF National Masters Track meet. Someone whose name I will not mention has blown around the notion that masters track and field athletes should abandon USATF and join with NSG as USATF is so dysfunctional etc yada yada yada.
Perhaps this strange notion about the wonders of the NSG track meet will finally dry up and blow away. Aside from the obvious limitations of events – no hurdles, no multi-events, nothing longer than 1500m on the track etc – it is run by some very incompetent folks who know diddle about track and field. Take a look at the scheduling of the events. If one want to do well – good luck with trying to double up within hours for running events.
Aside from that stupidity – now we see that the meet director has NOT A CLUE about the necessity of having a sanctioned meet. Those who set world records or american records can bask in the glory of the moment and know that they can now find a sanctioned meet and try to do it again.
When I am asked why I chose to go to the WMA meet in Lahti rather than the NSG meet in Stanford – my response was “I prefer the higher level of competition in my age group at the international meets”. I did not earn an individual medal, I am at the top of my age group and there were some superb athletes in my age group 70-74. Had I gone to the NSG I am pretty sure I would have won an individual medal or two- maybe not gold but some color. For me it was not about collecting medals – it was about having top level competition. In addition I was able to compete in the 8k x-c and the 5k on the track – events not offered by the NSG. Now I have another reason – not that I think I am about to set a record American nor World any time soon – it is NOT A SANCTIONED MEET.
I compete in non-sanctioned meets – ie MA Senior Games – this year was the worst run meet that I have had the misfortune to compete in. Not only no electronic timing – but also bad hand timing – and I have yet to see the results published anywhere. And the RI Senior Games – competently officiated but no electronic timing and no publishing of the results as yet. I have no clue if these meets were sanctioned. I was not there to try to set a record – I was there to try to get in shape for nationals and WMA. I like the various senior games track meets in my area as they afford me an opportunity to have some one fire a gun and time my race. Usually I have little competition in my events and age group but I go both to support the state’s games and also to get in a good training opportunity. It is hard to find masters track meets other than senior games track meets.
When I spend the money and time to go to a national and world meet – I am assuming that the meet is sanctioned. I am NOT assuming that I am going to set a record – but I want to know that those who have the talent to set a record will have it honored. National and International meets should not be run like an all-comers meet. Aside from the lap counting messes too often made in the longer track events – they are competently run and SANCTIONED by the appropriate authorities. And so should the National Senior Games.
I will keep that in mind when the next NSG comes around- and most likely I will stay home.
You can mention my name Mary. They need help with the technical aspects of the meet and we need their marketing, numbers and focus on on Seniors. Not to mention the use of the word “Olympics” and a full time professional staff focused on Seniors at the National Office.
This wonderfully insular American attitude of let’s go our way because because it’s the best way, is what gets this country in trouble internationally.
Anselms suggestion of a dialog with National Senior Games is a great first step. I started this when I was the chair.
We could still have our wonderfully run National Championships operating as a subsidiary of the NSGA.
At the local level we need to get out and help the local senior games organizers do it right. I have found tremendous cooperation from the people in San Diego, Nevada and Washington State (puget sound).
Athletes should be sure that a meet is sanctioned before they send in an entry fee. If there is a mis-represenation they should ask for their money back.
The fact that the Stanford meet was well run except for the sanction should not be forgotten.
Few people people were damaged and many were very happy with the experience.
Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
And so it is.
George
An apology and money back is hardly sufficient in the case of Don Pellmann. Don has competed in numerous Senior Games meets in the past, and, to my knowledge, they have always been sanctioned. At 93, now 94, Don is not able to travel much. He has been aiming for this meet for over a year to set some records. It seemed reasonable to assume that USATF sanctioning is now a Senior Games policy, and that certainly, the National meet would be sanctioned.
Nadine and I were told, at this meet, in no uncertain terms by the meet director that she could not use her personal starting blocks because they were going by USATF rules. Why else would they care about USATF rules unless they were sanctioned.
Bud Held
Nadine and I were told, at this meet, in no uncertain terms by the meet director that she could not use her personal starting blocks because they were going by USATF rules.
Bud – In all do respect, Nadine should be aware of the rules. There is no specific USATF rule which prohibits a competitor from using their own legal starting blocks. That is up to the games committee. Rule 161.1
I was at the Maryland Senior Olympics today and talked with a number of people who were at the NSG in California. No one had a good thing to say about how it was run. Here is some of what I heard:
1. Flo Meiler and Don Pellmann are the tip of the records iceberg. Marylander Audrey Lary set two world records and one American record at the NSG that will never be ratified (in the W75 400 she bettered her own American record by nearly 2 seconds and broke the world record in the process). I’m sure she’s not the only one.
2. The javelin was contested on an undulating grass runway.
3. The schedule did not permit “normal” doubles for masters — 100 and 400 finals one after the other.
4. The day by day event schedule was changed less than two weeks before the meet, which was long after people made their travel plans.
5. The number of no-shows was huge; in the M60 discus there were 41 entrants but only 21 competitors; for the record I was a no-show because of injury, but the number of no-shows seems to have been extremely high.
The contingent from Maryland was small; I’m sure there are many more stories from larger state delegations, some good (I sincerely hope) and others bad. Overall my conclusion is the the NSG is rapidly losing people who take track and field seriously (I talked to one today who said he’s never going back after the way his event was run in Louisville and the reaction of NSG officials).
Just remembered another story I heard today: in one age group a competitor in the 1500 wasn’t there to contest the race. After a couple of hours the winner went to pick up her medal and was initially given the gold. Then she was told shortly thereafter that she was going to have to give it back because the absent competitor had been allowed to run in a later section and had a better time. SAY WHAT?? The next day the 1500 winner and “winner” met in the 800 and the “winner” finished ONE MINUTE BEHIND the winner.
Sorry, that’s not a well run meet when things like that happen, at least not in my book.
I competed in the Javelin at NSGA and the grass runway we were on, No. 1 of 2, was fine.
The officials conducting the competition did an excellent job, especially when an American Record was set in the M70 group. They immediately told the marker to keep the marker pole in place and brought out a steel tape, remeasured, verified the measurement by several USATF officials and did everything correct in order to submit the mark for a new American Record.
Now, I guess it won’t even be able to be submitted for a record due to the non sanction.
The late change in schedule cost me and my wife probably $300 t0 $400 dollars more than was necessary as we arrived 2 days before we had to be there for competition.
Who do I see to get that money back? NSGA wants you to register about 8 months ahead of time, then this year they changed the competition schedule, as someone has already noted, about two weeks ahead of competition. I only became aware of it 2 DAYS before I departed for the meet.
Too, there were 26 registered
in my event and only 15 showed up. Lots of people voted with their feet at this NSGA!
Does anyone know if Marek Wensel’s M40 -44 pentathlon score of 3534 points from the 2009 USATF Masters Championships will be be ratified as an American record? The current AR is listed as 3510 points.
These reactions from athletes on how it went at the national senior games are warranted.
I saw the hints of brain deadness in the arrangement right from the beginning and the top, then decided that I did’nt want anything to do with this meet.
These are some of the incompetent mistakes:
date and timing of the meet
website convenience
specific qualification meets (out of the way meets)
major meet times and qualifications did’nt count
conditions did’nt maximize Senior representation in NSG
minimal representation of the events name National Senior Games
daily exact time schedules of events unavailable
Many people attended the event to wait around guessing what time of day an event would take place.
Many athletes took a crap shoot on the schedule risking haste and injury.
The two most important factors of attendance being the athletes and the audience must have plenty of room for mixed negative gut feelings about returning this meet.
The National Senior Games is a major competition, so there is no excuse for the sanctioning problem— particularly since the officials were certified by the USATF. The turf battles in our sport are distressing. Most athletes just want to compete. They should not be deprived of hard-earned records because of lack of cooperation between different agencies.
I enjoyed competing in the NSG. I thought the officials did a wonderful job in the discus and heard no complaints about the other events. The competition was excellent.
Regarding Nadine and the USATF rules: Nadine and I are well aware that the USATF rules do not prohibit the use of personal starting blocks. The meet director apparently did not know the rules, but was using his personal interpretation to disallow Nadine’s blocks. (Apparently a competitor complained.) My point was that since he said they were going by the USATF rules, he must have thought the meet was sanctioned.
So far of the fourteen comments, thirteen are basically just complaints and while they are probably valid complaints, what are we willing to do to make things better beyond griping?
We can at least be thankful that we have meets to go to at our age. But for our best athletes is the risk worth it. Our numbers are not that great and efforts have been made by some local organizations to combine Youth and masters meets together. Most spectator’s welcome our presence at the meets.
It would be nice if our esteemed leader, Gary Snyder, commented here or on his own blog:
http://chairreports.blogspot.com/
He hasn’t posted in three months.
Nowhere in its literature did the NSGA claim that the track meet was USATF sanctioned.
The USATF 2009 Rule Book starts page 15 with the statement
ATHLETICS RULES
These Rules of Competition shall apply to all events sanctioned by USA Track & Field (“USATF”)
There are several areas where the Senior Games can not meet USATF requirements, such as, it is not a proper Masters competition, they have non-standard events, they do not have all required events, they do not properly handle do preliminary heats, they do not impound implements, and they advertize four throws instead of six.
It is not reasonable to expect this or any senior games event to ever be sanctioned.
Thanks Karen Vaugh for your very interesting comments. Perhaps they should be widely published – including on the NSG website so that all track and field competitors are aware that the NSG track meet is probably not sanctioned.
Perhaps most competitors do not care one way or another and that is fine – I agree with Michael Daniels that we should be thankful for having a masters track meet. It is too bad however that this national track meet is such a truncated version of the real thing.
That being said – for those who are interested in setting age group records – no doubt a small number but an important group – probably it is best to think of the NSG meet as masters “all-comers” meet – an opportunity to compete with officials and timing (of some sort) on hand. An opportunity to meet up with fellow competitors and have a nice time at the track. But NOT a time to even think about setting records – for those talented enough to hope to do this.
Keep this in mind folks when the next NSG rolls around in 2011- in Houston – in competition with WMA Sacramento and National Masters meet in Cleveland.
I felt this meet was a joke from the beggining…money seemed to be the major issue. I paid the 120 before all the “DEADLINES” were extended as they must have been hurting for participants. Then the dorm accomodations were out of site, what a $120 a nite? compared to the 40 dollar rooms at Oshkosh…I felt the NSG people were getting a little kickback from that. The they had the issue of prelims for Vaulters. Obviously they no nothing of vaulters past 50…. we are lucky to get one good vault session in a week… and I thought the state games were what qualified you to the finals at the National Meet the year before?? Too bad,it’s a good concept, but I thought it was supossed to be for the seniors…I realize that there is more to the NSG than Track and Field,but putting on a track meet for us doe’s not require a degree in Rocket Science.
After all the changes that were made before the final”FINAL” deadline it would have been a $1500 trip for me to do one event so I opted not to do it and spend the money on my Grandson taking him to Street Vaults so he could hone his craft and it was cheaper to do that than go to California.
Nuff said, probably will be banned from all future NSG events now:)
Now that I read about all the above comments about NSG…I still wonder why more athletes don’t just go to the official USATF Masters Nationals, like in Oshkosh this year. It was first rate in almost every way and if you make the finals or get a medal, you are doing so in the one meet that is indisputably sanctioned and officiated by the best our sport has to offer. I think that we, as Masters SHOULD REALLY ENCOURAGE more participation at the Nationals. I saw several events that if you just showed up and got one throw off or jogged two laps in the 800, for example, you won a medal in the National Championships. Based upon the participation at NSG, you can see there is HUGE potential here for more Nationals participation.
I didn’t attend, and don’t have my booklet for entry (I guess I could try and go on-line to their site, but….)
my question: does the official National Senior Games entry form request you submit your USATF number?
If not, then you knew the meet was not sanctioned.
Peter – Do you realize what you have suggested? The concept whereby we should be responsible for our own actions -preposterous in this day and age. Please try again..
NSGA 2011 in Houston…what a swell place to have a track meet in the middle of summer. Extreme humidity, high temperatures-what more can a masters athlete hope for in a national meet.
I empathize with all of the athletes who worked so hard to set records. I imagine all of the officials are also upset about the lack of sanction. They gave of their valuable time and expertise so the rest of us good have a good time. And, I did! So thank you to all of them and to the many, many other volunteers.
I have another concern: While waiting between events I saw at least two emergency teams respond to trauma on the track. Ambulances responded as did several firemen and other emergency workers. I personally know two others who had to go to the hospital emergency room. With no sanction I understand that means no insurance. It seems to me the first concern of any meet organizer would be to be sure that athletes and officials are covered in case of an accident. What would happen if some poor official had been struck by a discus or javelin?
I want to know if this lack of sanctioning was an oversight or a policy decision? At least one meet director has told me he did not apply for sanctioning in order to save expense money.
The USATF masters schedule webpage (now updated) clearly indicates those meets which are or aren’t sanctioned:
http://www.usatf.org/calendars/searchResults.asp?ageGroup=M
They also have the link to easily access the USATF rules of competition :
http://www.usatf.org/about/rules/2009/2009USATFRules.pdf
As our circumstances allow us, let’s just honor the good meets and shun the crummy ones.
Trying to weed my way thru all the comments about the NSG, I am glad, I was in Finland, I could have gotten hurt anwhere, which I did…
Nadine, your question about insurance and not being sanctioned is very valid.
As the meetdirector for the Pasadena Senior Games, and just about every other year the CA. State Games, for the last 17! yrs., I can assure you, we have sanctioned the meet “forever”.
YES, in the beginning it was for insurance purposes, though I don’t recall, that we ever needed it.
BUT, the main thing was/is, we can verify records.
We have all USATF certified! officials, implement weigh – in, windgauge, automatic timing. USATF – Masters rules.
In other words, we run that meet as a full Masters Track and Field meet within the whole Senior Games.
. Volunteers are highly welcomed – and we have a lot of them (incl.myself)
Cindy Rosedale, the Senior Centers Organizer is doing a mega job for the athletes.
We even take out an ad. in the National Masters News.
AND YES, WE WORRY ABOUT THE COST AND HOW WE CAN
MANAGE THE EXPENSIVE FACILITY, OFFICIALS, HI TECH. TIMING, ETC,ETC.
OUR SLOGAN IS: WE ARE GOING TO BE FINE…
BUT, this meet is also for the beginner. We encourage, coach… and cheer for everybody.
And yes, we have a softball throw for distance, which I almost dared to take out, because of scheduling problems. Was begged, told, etc. to leave it in the program – and I DID! We start early and get it done before the main meet starts.
I have competed in Senior Games away from California. They were run by well meaning people, all volunteers,
experienced in T&F, and just the opposite. BUT always willing to do the best for the Senior Athletes. Some listen, if we try (very carefully) to correct a rule, some do not and some are more than happy to let us help and even ask us to stay and help with other events.
At a recent meet – won’t tell the location – the “officials” at the triple jump had no idea, how to judge a jump, they were more than happy to learn on the spot, and they did – incl. meassuring…
Some of the Senior Games will not meet the standards of our “Elite Masters”
so one has to pick and choose, or simply enjoy a
meet that’s been put on by people trying to create a competition for everyone.
If you get a “Thank You” at the end of a meet, or an e-mail, OR a special rose (thanks, Karen Vaughn) what more do we want!
So, maybe include our meet in your plans, it is sanctioned …….
Nadine, there are other ways for events to get liability insurance besides USATF. NSG is part of a big organization, and I am sure they had some other sort of insurance.
I think that USATF needs to do more to make sanctioning track meets more appealing to groups that already have access to insurance. Most meet directors sanction their meets because they _have_ to for one reason or another, not because they feel like they get anything out of it.
I do think NSG dropped the ball big time. I believe USATF officials get liability insurance through USATF and I am not sure if that covers non-sanctioned events (though I think it does cover HS meets, so maybe I am wrong). The competitors need to know, because as USATF members, you have secondary insurance through USATF should something catastrophic happen. I assume that is only good if it’s a USATF event.
Ultimately, it has to be the participants that demand this. NSG won’t care if they lose a few of their top competitors as long as their overall numbers remain strong.
When you are a current member of USATF you also have limited medical insurance while traveling to and from a USATF sanctioned meet. You also have limited coverage while participating at a “sanctioned” meet. Officials are covered regardless of whether it is sanctioned or not. There is better coverage if the meet is sanctioned but they have a imited liability policy even if it is not sanctioned..
Thanks for the info Becca and “anonymous.” I still would like some Senior Games person to verify the insurance question. It appears that officials are only covered at USATF sanctioned meets and USATF club events. See :http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:p5UgyFyeOJwJ:www.usatf.org/clubs/benefits/insurancebrochure.pdf+insurance+for+usatf+officials&hl=en&gl=us
Also, I still think it is important to know whether the lack of sanctioning was a policy decision or an oversight. I think this is a basic question that should be answered before the games committee can move forward.
You are uninformed grasshopper. If you are a USATF Certified Official you are covered at almost all events.. Try here as this could quinch your thirst for knowledge
http://www.usatfofficials.com/chairman.htmlledge.
I am uninformed: I don’t know what an “uninformed grasshopper” is. I asked some of my super educated and informed friends and they don’t know either.
Thanks for making me informed about the link. I read it; there are some contradictions. But, I will let this go. My main concern was for all the wonderful officials and volunteers who gave of their precious time and knowledge to make these games a lot of fun. I hope their welfare is always considered.
Try this
http://www.usatfofficials.com/chairman.html
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