Response from Joel Dubow: ‘Penn Relays not an open meet’
Joel Dubow
I have trouble with this scenario â athletes vs. administrators. Itâs a false dichotomy. For one thing, many athletes are certified USATF officials, club leaders and meet volunteers. Itâs rarely either-or.
Secondly, we have the right to be Peter Pans. Are adult athletes in any sport obligated to carry their âfair shareâ of meet management or officiating?
In fact, as coach Brooks Johnson blogged in another context: âWithout athletes, there would absolutely be no need for a federation. So the federation exists only because athletes exist. The athletes CAME first and rightfully should BE first!â
But Joel is entitled to his opinions, and he expresses them well.
Many other issues are addressed in this memo. One that needs resolving: Can Phil Felton manage Pennâs masters events without the Philly Masters Track Club as middleman? I welcome your thoughts.
Hereâs an unformatted version of Joelâs response:
JOEL DUBOW RESPONDS REGARDING MASTERS ENTRIES AT PENN RELAYS
A few weeks back I had the dubious honor of being featured in the lead story on masterstrack.com titled âPhilly not City of Brotherly Clubs; PMTC prez tried to bar GPTC.â The article addressed the initial denial of entry of the Greater Philadelphia Track Club teams into Penn Relays followed by the subsequent acceptance of their entries.
I am grateful to Ken Stone for including in that article the full text of the two emails that I sent to GPTC. Read in their entirety, they pretty well describe the circumstances.
However, Kenâs commentary prior to the insertion of the emails contained some inaccuracies that tended to distort the situation. What is problematic is that later information tends to be interpreted in the context of the framework set by earlier information â especially when the basis for the earlier information has been supplied by someone with an agenda â so it is uncertain to me that masterstrack.com readers came to fully understand the circumstances. And, given the length of the emails I had sent, they may not even have read much beyond Kenâs opening. [Unfortunately, I will not be brief here, either; I seldom am.]
Following the receipt of comments from some of his readers, Ken emailed me with an invitation to respond. There followed a (very) long telephone conversation between us regarding both the immediate circumstances and some of the history leading up to them. (At Kenâs suggestion I am omitting the deep history. That is an issue that I may eventually address only where it belongs â within the confines of the USATF Mid-Atlantic Association Masters T&F community.)
What I will address here are: (Part 1) corrections/clarifications to what Ken reported and to some of the âinfoâ offered by those who chose to comment; (Part 2) the larger issue of âperceived entitlementsâ by some who seem to think that there ought be no restrictions to their entry in any meet â letâs call it the Peter Pan Syndrome â and how that relates to Penn Relays, Philadelphia Masters T&F Association, and GPTC; (Part 3) a response to some of the comments made to Kenâs article â in a way that will address some aspects of Part 2.
Part 1 â Corrections/Clarifications
PMTC prez tried to bar GPTC: This is not true; there was no attempt to âbarâ GPTC. What occurred was that GPTC did not meet the entry requirements we had established six months earlier for Masters T&F clubs registered in MAUSATF. Had they met those criteria they would have been accepted from the git-go.
The Jimmy Carter analogy: This was a poor analogy. Jimmy Carter kept his own athletes from competing, while Philly Masters has facilitated its own competitive team membersâ entry into Penn Relays. And, again, we did not bar GPTC from applying to enter; they simply did not meet our acceptance criteria for MAUSATF-based Masters T&F clubs.
âA day later, Joel reversed himselfâ: This is inaccurate. I did not reverse myself. What happened was that at the 11th hour, due to the efforts of several players, GPTC sufficiently fulfilled a quid pro quo requirement that we deemed necessary for their acceptance into the meet.
Wrong people credited: Ken credited Chuck Shields, Lorraine Jasper and Phil Felton with sorting things out. He was 2/3 right in that list, but another 60% wrong â missing three other players. Chuck was not involved in the sorting out process. Hereâs what happened: (1) Patrick Good (Philly Masters VP) called me asking if there was âanything we could do.â (2) I proposed two options. (3) I contacted Phil Felton to verify that there was still time to include GPTC if they complied. (4) I spoke with Lorraine Jasper and relayed on to her (a) that it was not too late and, (b) what the two options were. (5) Lorraine contacted Ray Parker of GPTC. (6) Ray contacted GPTC members and in less than three hours rallied six of them to help as volunteers at the Philly Masters Throwathon Meet on June 5-6. [FYI: Chuck Shields was not among the initial six, but I am told that since then he has added his name to the list.]
The muzzling of Kevin Forde: Kevin Forde has commented about attempts to âmuzzleâ him â but that did not keep him from raising the issue on his blog, and I assume it was Kevin that called the issue to the attention of masterstrack.com. Let me make clear, it was neither I, nor Philly Masters, that asked Kevin to refrain from speaking out; it was his own club members at GPTC! Shows what a fine team player Kevin is, doesnât it?
[I will respond to another comment sent to masterstrack.com by Cheryl Bellaire and to Kevin Fordeâs later blog entry at the end of this response.]
Part 2 â The âEntitlementâ Misperception: Penn Relays, Philly Masters, GPTC and TNT Racing International
One element of this Penn Relays affair that surprises me is the assumption among some that entry into masters meets ought to be unfettered â that there is an assumed entitlement to compete in any meet labeled âMasters.â Folks, thereâs no such thing as a free lunch. You may not pay for it, but someone, in some way is picking up the tab â through their labor or their cash.Depending on whom the event organizer is, entry âentitlementsâ vary. For instance, where an event is underwritten and/or organized by a USATF entity at the National, Regional, or Association level, any dues paying member of USATF is entitled to enter within the geographical limits of the USATF entity. And note this: In USATF Association level championship meets, the sponsoring Association is not required to allow members of outside USATF Associations to compete â though they almost always do. Note, too, that even if a USATF sanction applies to the meet, that does not make the meet automatically open to all USATF members; entry conditions are determined by the event organizer. For instance, a dual meet may be sanctioned but not open to all.
Call it the Peter Pan Syndrome. Most T&F athletes began in Youth Clubs or public or private school systems. From the athletesâ perspective it was a given that they could participate gratis; someone else did the work while they played. For those that went on to the collegiate level, once again others were doing the work while they played. Free rides! Well, folks (and I realize most among you know this), once you become a masters T&F athlete you are 30 years old and itâs time to grow up.
[Do you recall the first four words of the theme song to the Disney movie, âPeter Panâ? They were âI wonât grow upâŚâ]
T&F, unlike road racing, is not a sport with sufficient demand to offer fund-raising opportunities to the point where there are multiple racing opportunities in any major city on every weekend. T&F meets require dedicated groups of volunteers working within organizational entities. In most cases there is little or no profit to the meet organizing party; when there is it is relatively small in proportion to the effort it takes to conduct the meet. The organizational work before T&F meets is complex and the operational work on the day of the meet is taxing. There is a lot of âburnoutâ among the people that take on these responsibilities.
Within the extended Philadelphia area Philly Masters has long been the Club doing virtually all the work of providing competitive T&F opportunities for Masters athletes. It was complex, taxing, and over time we experienced a fair amount of burnout. In fact, in 2007, we faced the issue of possibly having to dissolve the club. Instead, we decided to focus our attention on forming a competitive team in the hopes that would draw in more members and encourage a sense if club team spirit. Our agenda called for that effort to come about in 2009. [FYI: It worked!]
Penn Relays is not an âopenâ meet. Though USATF-sanctioned, Penn Relays is conducted by a private university -â the University of Pennsylvania. And it is interesting to note that acceptance into Penn Relays is much like acceptance into the University of Pennsylvania: many apply (and pay an application fee to do so), but not all applicants are accepted. That principle holds for both the main portion of Penn Relays and the Masters events. A difference, though, is that there is no follow up entry fee for Penn Relays, while there is many a cost to those that are accepted into the University of Pennsylvania.
As a private institution, U. of Penn. is quite free to choose who to accept based on any mix of criteria they choose â- including, say, candidatesâ public service record. Penn Relays is also entitled to determine its own criteria, and not necessarily based up some automatic formula.Philly Masters is the gatekeeper for the Masters track events at Penn Relays. Why? Simple; we put up the cash and we do the work. The Masters track events at Penn Relays are there because of prior lobbying efforts made by Philly Masters. Penn Relays agreed to allocate time and heats to Masters events on a flat fee basis, and on a risk/reward basis to Philly Masters, in return for $2000 per year. Philly Masters was given the right and the responsibility to manage the application and entry selection process. And, just as with the main portion of Penn Relays, there is a nonrefundable application fee, but no followup entry fee to those accepted.
FYI: In the early years Philly Masters lost money on Penn Relays. Only in the past several years have we enjoyed a net gain â which seems to have stabilized as a result of about $4000 in application fees, minus $2000 paid to Penn Relays, and minus about $1000 in expenses incurred by our Penn Relays coordinator, Phil Felton; net to Philly Masters is about $1000 â which helps fund other activities of our 501 (c) 3 organization.
The entry criteria for Masters in the Penn Relays were based upon our original purpose in lobbying to include Masters events. We wanted to give our members the opportunity to compete in Penn Relays and bring other clubs from around the country to compete against us. At the time we were the only Masters club in the Philadelphia area; being a Masters T&F athlete largely meant being a Philly Masters member â- although, space permitting, we did accept entries from non-member groups.
[Now before I continue, I am going to request this of you: As you read on, ask of yourself this question â If you were in the situations that are being described, if it was you doing the work, how would you feel? What decisions would you have made?]
In 2009, things changed. Just as we had decided to revitalize our Club (whose serious membership had been attriting) by emphasizing our competitive team, two new Masters-oriented clubs appeared. GPTC formed as a spinoff from Philadelphia Athletic Charities, and TNT Racing International formed out of a group of track-oriented athletes that had belonged to the Pike Creek Valley club. Certainly, people are entitled to join up with other folks they choose in order to form clubs. But, what we in Philly Masters saw happening was that both GPTC and TNT were taking athletes from the Mid-Atlantic Association pool who, had those two teams not emerged, would have probably competed for us.
As noted above, up through 2009 Philly Masters was the Club that was doing virtually all of the work of organizing Masters T&F events in the extended Philadelphia area. But now there were three groups enjoying the fruits of our efforts, yet Philly Masters was still doing all the work.
[Ask yourself here, how you would feel about this were you in our place?]
In response to this situation we came to feel that if other clubs were taking athletes from the Mid-Atlantic masters pool, they ought to also take responsibility for conducting a fair share of Mid-Atlantic masters events â or at least meaningfully assist us in our efforts.
Into mid-2009, in my role as President of Philly Masters I engaged in conversations with representatives of GPTC and TNT about their sharing some of that burden. I received quite different responses from the two clubs.
TNT was positive to the request and friendly in their manner.
GPTC, however, was negative and even a bit hostile. From their Treasurer/Team Captain I heard: âWe are not an event organizer,â and, âWe just want to run.â
From their President I heard: âWe just want to help people have fun.â And (not exact quotes), âItâs none of Philly Mastersâ business what we do or donât do as a club,â and âItâs inappropriate of you to even ask us.â
And what did they do for fund-raising? Did they organize T&F events? No, they threw parties. Duh!
They were functionally defining themselves as a Peter Pan club.
We determined what we would do about the situation at a September 20, 2009 meeting of our Executive Committee. Though we were not happy to have to make the decision, we ultimately decided to use Penn Relays as a reward to the teams that joined us in sharing the burden. This is the description of our decision that we published in a widely disseminated email:
We will accept team and individual entries from the MAUSATF-registered Clubs that compete against us in T&F only from those clubs that demonstrate a significant amount of reciprocity in making T&F opportunities available for Masters athletes within the MAUSATF geography â in due proportion to their MAUSATF presence. They may do so either by conducting relevant events on their own accord, or by assisting Philadelphia Masters in its operations.
[If you were in our place would you not have felt justified in adopting this position?]
As it occurred, the TNT team was very understanding of our position and met this requirement by scheduling a 3-meet summer all-comers series for 2010 â scheduled for just that time when we had decided we would drop our summer all-comers series. In our judgment, that represented a âsignificant amount of reciprocity.â Accordingly, we facilitated Penn Relays entry for all TNT teams and athletes that applied in 2010.
At one point Chuck Shields did (in an email not sent to me) say that GPTC might or might not conduct an unspecified event, specifically saying, âIt may or may not happen, but I refuse to discuss it with Joel.â
Chuck Shields did speak to our VP, Patrick Good, about the event, indicating it would be a Runnersâ Pentathlon and a Throwersâ Triathlon. And, he indicated to Patrick that GPTC would like to compete in Penn Relays. But by virtue of his refusal to speak to me, he did not ascertain whether the event would represent âa significant amount of reciprocityâŚin due proportion to [GPTCâs] presence.â I will explain below, in my response to Cheryl Bellaireâs comment, why it is not in âdue proportion.â
The net of all this is that GPTCâs leadership did a poor job of managing the interests of their members. Iâm unsure of the dynamics within GPTC between what its members were willing to do vs. the posture its leadership told them their club would take. From more than one source I am informed that Chuck Shields seemed to stake out the issue as a Chuck Shields vs. Joel Dubow issue. But, in doing so it is clear that he did a poor management job in advancing his membersâ interests. The proof of that is this:
What Chuck Shields was unable to accomplish for his members in 6 months, Ray Parker (a non-officer of GPTC) was able to accomplish in 3 hours! And the fact that six members were so quickly willing to sign up to assist us at a one of our upcoming events says that they did not buy into GPTC being a Peter Pan club!
I realize that the GPTC members that signed up to help at our June 5-6 Throwathon may have felt that they were unduly pressured into doing so given the very tight deadline for their GPTC teamsâ acceptance into Penn Relays. To those GPTC members that stepped up, let me note that, based on your taking action you have explicitly endorsed the idea that your club ought to participate in contributing your efforts to Masters events in the MAUSATF geography. And, had your Clubâs leadership been more communicative with us/me, we could have made that request of you much earlier so that you would not have felt pressured. Donât blame me!
Part 3 â Responses to Comments
There are two people who offered comments to the masterstrack.com article that I feel require a response.
The first was Cheryl Bellaire. At the outset, let me note that I was told that Cheryl is one of the GPTC members that stepped forward to offer assistance at our Throwathon â even though she was not a member of a team initially denied entry.
I will use my response to Cheryl to explain why GPTCâs scheduled event was deemed to not be sufficiently reciprocal to merit Penn Relays entry â but first I am asking Cheryl for an apology.
Cheryl indicated that in the past she had tried to mend relationships between GPTC and Philly Masters. Indeed she had; what she did involved communicating with both sides, and that was appreciated. This year, however, she has publicly passed on a lie about me without first checking whether what she passed on was true. It was the sentence in her comment that said, âJoel last year apparently kept TNT out of racing at Penn Relays.â
That statement is absolutely, positively false! Cheryl could have verified it by contacting Phil Felton (or Kyle Lanier at TNT), but she negligently did not. One TNT team was indeed denied entry last year because, of the 16 teams applying for a 4x100m relay race, they were not one of the top nine that could be fit onto the track. That was standard operating procedure as managed by Phil Felton and Phil will back me up on that.
To Cheryl: First contact Phil Felton to verify this. Then offer up the public apology you owe me for passing on that slander.
There are a number of other slanderous things that I have heard being said about me within the GPTC community. (I have a growing collection of copies of emails that have reached me. FYI: Whenever I have mentioned Chuck Shields in an email, I have had the courtesy to copy him on it. Chuck has had neither the courtesy nor courage to copy me when the roles are reversed â but many of them get to me.)For instance, I again refer to something Cheryl alluded to: My attempt last year to pull the Mid-Atlantic clubs together into a single unit that could have competed against (and, if you check the team point totals, beaten) the SoCal team at the Indoor Masters National Championship Meet in Landover. What I hear is being said about me is that my motive for denying GPTC entry into Penn Relays is to âget even with GPTCâ for not going along with me.
Anyone who believes that is ignoring the elephant in the room â the TNT club. Last year the TNT people (while still with the Pike Creek Valley club) had at first indicated they would indeed join with Philly Masters for the national meet, but then reversed themselves and formed the TNT club.
If I were being vindictive, would I not be even more antagonistic to the TNT club for reneging? The difference is that TNT readily jumped in with a significant reciprocal effort â and was rewarded with entries into Penn Relays for all teams/athletes they wanted in. And as far as how the TNT club feels about me, I have a standing offer from their President to join their club and competitive team. TNT and GPTC have quite different club personalities; local word has it that even some of its own members have become dissatisfied with GPTCâs.
This brings me to relate why the GPTC Runners Pentathlon/Throwers Triathlon is deemed not to be sufficiently reciprocal in proportion to GPTCâs presence within MAUSATF. In contrast to the five indoor all-comers meets, the one outdoor pre-Championship developmental meet, the two MAUSATF championship meets, and the Throwathon we conduct, and in contrast to the three outdoor all-comers meets TNT will conduct, the GPTC event is a very meager event in both size and appeal.
Entries are capped at a total of 86 athletes: 54 runners and 32 throwers. (The full track meets we have conducted last year and this have attracted between 100 and 180 athletes each.) Furthermore, the character of the GPTC event places its focus on distance runners. Few sprinters have ever entered prior versions of the event a decade ago â when Philly Masters conducted a similar meet and eventually decided it was a failed event not worth resuming. And, it offers nothing at all to horizontal and vertical jumpers. So to consider the event to be proportionately reciprocal is a bit of a sham.
But wait, thereâs more! In actually conducting the event, GPTC has asked to borrow a piece of Philly Masters timing equipment â which will also require a Philly Masters member (in fact a member of our Executive Committee) to serve as head timer for the Runners Pentathlon portion.
Furthermore, another one of our Executive Committee members, Ray Feick, will be fully in charge of the Throwers Triathlon portion. I daresay that on meet day, Philly Masters people will be doing at least half the physical work, while GPTC volunteers attend merely to shuffling runners around at the start line, pressing a few timer buttons, and entering data into a laptop. Why is this considered a GPTC event and not a shared GPTC-Philly Masters event?
So, while it is a sham to consider the event to be a proportionally reciprocal contribution to the MAUSATF T&F community, it is a scam for GPTC to take full credit for the event when Philly Masters people will be doing so much of the work It is practically a theft of services.
Now consider this scenario had the GPTC members not stepped up to agree to help at our June 5-6 Throwathon as a quid pro quo for Penn Relays entry:
Had the GPTC members not stepped forward, Philly Masters would have conducted the Throwathon without a single GPTC member helping. But come the GPTC event, Philly Masters members would have been doing about half the work.
The reciprocity condition that we initiated was intended to bring the other MAUSATF clubs to help share the burden and lighten the load that we alone had taken. If they were taking athletes from the Mid-Atlantic pool, they ought to also take a fair share of the responsibility for conducting Masters-beneficial events in the area. But it looks like what GPTC did would merely add to the burden taken on by our members.
[So let me ask each of you, and especially the members of GPTC, to answer this question: How fair is that?]
While the reciprocity requirement was a Philly Masters Executive Committee decision, I will accept full administrative responsibility for the decision that GPTC had not met the reciprocity criterion. What I have said above explains why I reached that decision.
My second response is to Kevin Fordeâs articulate contributions:
1. Being called an âarseâ by Kevin Forde is like being called ugly by a âpossum;
2. I may owe an apology for having said that â to the âpossum;
3. Have any of you that have seen Kevin Forde ever noticed that he actually looks like a âpossum? How about all of us honoring Kevin in the future by giving him the nickname âpossum?
34 Responses
The Peter Pan comment and the rationale behind it is pretty insulting, not to mention wrong.
He states that many of us started T & F in public school system and then says “Free ride!” we played while others paid.
Wrong! my hs coach was paid with my families tax money. So was the starter, the guy who prepped the track, the officials at the finish line etc etc.
Same in College, so Joel who was REALLY paying?
Time to grow up indeed. And while there are some fantastic masters athletes, part of the problem is we have barely scratched the surface of the potential pool of competitors. Not to belittle any current athletes, but there are many of us who stay in shape not to compete against others but for personal reasons. If some of these people could be enticed to compete it would make masters even more exciting. Masters track gets little exposure to the general population so i think it is nice to try and get the word out & encourage more participation whenever possible. To denigrate people who have participated monetarily in the sport for decades as “freeloaders” is not only factually inaccurate, it is insulting. Don’t worry Phil i will never burden you with an entry and i am sure others feel the same way.
sorry i said Phil meant Joel need more coffee this morning, (sigh)…
I am not involved in master’s track to work at meets. I want to race, pure and simple, and am willing to pay an entry fee to do this. When I ran this winter at The Amory they didn’t ask me to help, they charged me a fee to compete. If that fee was not enough to run the meet, I assume they would raise it, and I would have to decide if it was worth the cost. That is the American way, right? It seems to me that Philly Masters should raise their meet fees to make it worth their while as a fund raising venture or cancel the meets. This will force “Peter Pans” like myself to 1)cough-up more money 2)travel farther away to find meets or 3)create our own meets. If you don’t want to run the meets, quit crying for help and just don’t run them anymore. The beautiful american system of supply and demand will work it all out.
I have to add one other thing. I was originally a member of Philly masters. After one season, I switched to GPTC because I wanted to train and race with highly competitive master’s track athletes like Kevin Forde. I also wanted to join-up with a motivated, and enthusiastic person like Chuck Shields. I have come to find that they are two of the most respected people in the master’s track community. I find it insulting to question the character of my friends, Kevin Forde and Chuck Shields.
In my opinion, the worst part about all this is that it casts one of the greatest track and field events on the planet in a bad light. The Penn Relays need to seriously rethink how they are outsourcing their event. There is no way they would stick with the status quo if they were fully aware of all the carrot dangling and wicket jumping politics that were driving the acceptance process – at least I hope not…
Also, nice touch with the 4th grade style parting shot directed at Kevin Forde. Nothing sums up a “well written response” like dropping a “looks like a ‘possum” reference… Stay classy Philadelphia!
I’m not sure I would want to be a member of an organization that was represented by Mr. Dubow.
Joel Dubow has contributed a great deal to masters T&F, as have previous presidents of the Philadelphia Masters T&F Association (I was one of them). In fact, you do get burned out, and you want other people to step up to do more.
I have enjoyed working with Joel in the past and hope to work with him again at some point in the future.
As a more simplistic example, when I was at UC Irvine for 14 years, we could always have a masters vault if we would help run the menâs and womenâs vault for the collegiate athletes. We simpy went first. No problem! We also got to train there because I coached their kids and others helped out in practice. It was a great trade off. Bubba
Joel Dubow’s attempt to combine a group of Mid-Atlantic teams in an attempt to beat So-Cal highlights a problem that has only been exacerbated by the recent rule changes that allow athletes to bascially club-hop and/or form all-star teams.
As we all know, running is primarily an individual sport, and that is what makes having the opportunity to run relays with your teammates special and rewarding. However, my coaches taught me that being part of team means, showing up to practice and training with my teammates, which resulted in sharing the work, feeling the pain and building bonds.
Unfortunately, it seems that the far too many of the teams contending for USATF titles simply show up from all over the country to compete at natioanl meets!
Sorry for the grammar, spelling, and syntax errors in my last post…I was pressed for time.
Bottom line…national and all-star clubs are great for winning titles, setting records, and inflating egos, but I think that there are more than a few different ways to field teams to compete for USATF Championships. For example; city, state, association, region, and neighboring region.
Say J. Stone sound like you would welcome some of the National Senior Games program. But I think one of the goals of the Masters and USATF is to have just what you said having city, state, association, region etc type meets. It all take time, some of which most of us masters don’t have, but an organization can carry it forward for years to come.
It takes a team of people to get things done.
joel dubow has always been a gentleman to me. at times,while i was immersed in the care of my dad who had alzheimers, and was unsure if i would be able to take a day to compete at the eastern regionals indoors, joel accepted my entry well past the deadline, on more than one occassion and helped me “forget ” for a day the task that was at hand. he had kind things to say, and for that i am greatful…
As an athlete from NJ, I have always appreciated the
meets made possible by the Philly Masters. I’ve always found them well run. Quite frankly without they’re (and Joel’s) efforts there would certainly be a lack of meets available to us Masters in the Mid-
Atlantic area.
Thanks for all your efforts.
Charlie Roll, M60 shot put
I think some of the readers have missed Joel’s point. It is very difficult to recruit volunteers to run an organization and a track meet. Scratch the surface of many organizations including Masters Track & Field and you will see that there is a tiny group of overworked volunteers who are doing a great deal of work.
When I joined Philadelphia Masters many years ago (long before Joel Dubow) the membership application stated very clearly that you must volunteer for something if you want to participate as a member. I will admit that in my case I often opted to remove hurdles at meets.
But mainly my thoughts went back to when my children ran track for Philadelphia CYO and we used Cheney University’s track. Part of the deal was that we parent’s had to rake the cinder track. When our school was going to drop track my wife stepped up and became coach. The point is that there is a contract whether some people want to recognize it or not. And that is to give back. And as many organizations (and track meets) have disappeared when no one stepped up, sometimes, as Joel did, you must make a stand.
I have only been running track for 16 years but I have played a lot of other sports. In my opinion track people are the most helpful of all. Especially Masters track people who have helped me out at all levels of the sport. That, I hope is the true spirit which will prevail.
I understand what you’re saying, JStone, and to some extent agree. I don’t think someone living on one side of the country should be competing for a club based on the other side.
However, there are several issues I’ve had with the clubs I’ve been a part of (I live in Bend in Central Oregon):
1) I initially joined the Oregon Cross Country Club- run by Dave Clingan and no cost to be part of the club which I greatly appreciated so I joined even though it was based in Portland
2) Oregon XC Club folded as a USATF club so I went unnattached
3) My good friend started the Sisters Striders which is 20 miles away so I’m now part of that club (again for no cost)…however, other than name only, there is no team uniform yet, etc.
The local club here in Bend has in the past cost $$ to join and my personal philosophy is that one of the great things about running is it’s cheap (just get some running shoes and even that’s going away now for some!) and I don’t think you should have to pay to run with others.
But as far as training goes, I’m a full-time teacher, coach, and husband and so time to train with others is non-existent so I run and train on my own when I can.
So there are several issues involved for me at least.
Good morning, afternoon and evening all who is reading this particular entry. I definitely like to clarify some of what Mr. Dubow has said. Why? B/c of course there is two sides to every story, then the truth!!! I’m only going to speak about the TNT International Racing Club. I’m going to make some points b/c I definitely plan on addressing Mr. Dubow face to face b/c I was raised that way. If I have an issue with someone, deal with him, her or them face to face. I passed this same advice to Mr. Dubow and I see he had to put another log on the fire……………..stupid in my opinion. First combo of clubs, that didn’t start in 2009 or whenever. It actually started in Orono, Maine (Outdoor Nationals) while Kareem Lanier, Tom Thomasson and I were warming up for our ad – hoc 4×800 relay. We heard him out and continued to warm up. His obsession continue up to this nationals asking myself about joining together, mainly to beat the SoCal Track Club. I polled the TNT Family Members and the answer was NO. Guess what the answer still remains NO!!! We only got some half cracked congrats by email after this year’s indoor nationals. Whatever!!! TNT’s goal was to win the indoor national title, not to beat SoCal. So let me be clear about that. We want to remain a competitive masters and open racing club and plan to remain that way. Another point Mr. Dubow makes about the summer meets and making GPTC look bad b/c we complied to him asking us. Correction, TNT’s summer meets were already organized and ready to go before he even opened his mouth. He continues to make it about him, which is wrong. For Mr. Dubow to act like we were open and complying, he is wrong. We have always been open to everyone, whether their club status. I make sure I keep an TNT Family member in earshot when he opens his mouth b/c I can’t control that mouth of his. Now for Cheryl’s comment about TNT NOT competing in Penns and Mr. Dubow’s explaining Mr. Felton reason is simply incorrect also. Mr. Dubow continues to say he doesn’t have anything to do with that but our check is written out to Philly Masters. Funny, why wasn’t our check returned? Also the day when TNT were suppose to compete and didn’t Mr. Felton didn’t have a legimate reason why TNT couldn’t compete. It is a shame men took off from work and are from Philly area and couldn’t compete in front of their family. So for Mr. Dubow to come up with some we didn’t qualify………whatever. Finally, Mr. Dubow puts TNT International Racing Club in his light to build his credibility in public’s eye but please in future response leave us out and stop making other clubs in our area, mid – atlantic assn and definitely yourself look bad. Everyone else have a great day or evening, God Bless and take care.
Kyle Lanier
President of TNT International Racing Club
P.S. If anyone feels as though that he, she or they need to say something to me or any of the TNT Family Members our meet schedule is on our club website. I prefer to do battle face to face or leave it on the track. I hope to see Mr. Dubow on May 29th or June 12th to put a stop to this non – sense as well. Thank you.
Actually, it’s called
PHILADELPHIA TRACK PENTATHLON and THROWS TRIATHLON
Come join us for a great post-Nationals event on August 15 in Gwynedd Valley , PA
AGE – GRADED SCORING ! CASH ! CASH ! CASH !
Not bad for a meager effort. Hope to see you there, I’ll be the one laying in the infield eating bon-bons.
Petey
Possums are actually kinda of cute. Check out this one: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_M0cuxJsSjdU/SJylVMrRCeI/AAAAAAAAEdo/XB49hGRxJjo/s400/Cute%2520Possom-500×578.jpg
Al, Charlie, and Burr: Nicely said. Regardless of one’s feelings on the Penn Relays situation, I think we should all be able to agree that it is people like Joel Dubow (Philadelphia), Craig Chasse (Potomac Valley), and other unsung heroes who make this engine run. All those thousands of hours over the years, with little or no thanks in return. If they charged even $18 an hour for their services, what would the entry fees be? “Astronomical” would be a good guess.
It is economically irrational for people (meet management, club presidents, etc.) to give so much of their time to masters T&F, but they do it anyway. Making this an economically rational, market-driven program would be tough indeed. If you can’t afford to manufacture widgets, get out of the widget business, but masters T&F is a different animal. How quickly the meets would disappear (Hartshorne Mile, Philadelpia Masters meets, even Penn Relays) if we used economic criteria to justify their existence.
Hartshorne Mile, Penn Relays, open meets at the Armory, national and regional masters championships…none of these events require competitors to help organize or officiate. Yet, they somehow manage to keep cost down (no doubt through massive volunteering WITHIN The organization). By barring athletes from competing at Penn, Joel Debow is in affect “requiring” that competitors help him run his meets or create their own. Who is this guy? He decides what is a “fair share”? What I volunteer for is none of his business. Joel should look within his own organization for help and not worry about what other clubs are doing. Concentrate on running a quality meet Joel, if you’re not a strong enough leader in your club to accomplish than step down. Don’t resort to immature rantings about possoms just because you’re upset that Chuck Shields is a stronger leader than you
Bob, Penn Relays relies on massive volunteering OUTSIDE of the organization (hundreds of people, including me). Even so, they have something called Friends of the Penn Relays to help make up the losses. Hartshorne Mile keeps costs (for the athletes) down out of kindness. They could charge five times as much (to make up their costs, including the cost of donated services) and end up with no event in a few years. Similarly, Penn Relays could jack up the costs to the athletes, but it does not.
What you are missing, Bob, is that people like Joel Dubow (and I have said it before) are the people who allow us to have masters competition at the local and regional level. They do far more than they should, and they do it for people like you. A little volunteering by some other people would help Joel out a lot. If someone gave you hundreds of hours of free service in a single year would you respond by denigrating his efforts?
Pete, Tom Hartshorne and Penn relays don’t strong arm people into helping them. Are you actually defending the actions of this man as it relates to this particular issue or just commenting on what a wonderful person he is? To be honest, I don’t know Joel. I am aware that he has put forth a lot of time and effort for master’s track. That doesn’t take away from the fact that he is wrong in the way he has handled this. Those of us who are close to the issue know that his actions were an immature reaction to personal issues he has with our club. I am not “missing” anything. I realize that masters track, and track in general, relies on volunteers. I am not advocating that we, as a track community, quit volunteering. But, as Tom Hartshorne and others have shone, there are better ways to manage this. Do you really believe that this Penn Relays fiasco was right?
Bob, I am commenting on Joel in general and on the issue of masters track and field. Without people like Joel, Tom Hartshorne, Craig Chasse, Rex Harvey, George Mathews, Gary Snyder, and quite a few other volunteers there would be no masters T&F.
I will plead “no comment” on the Penn Relays issue. In fact, I will not comment on it at all either now or in the future. Any comments I made above are purely on Joel Dubow’s service and on the importance of volunteers. I have nothing to say otherwise.
Thank you, Bob.
PLT
Well said Pete, I agree. And I think the “no comment” answers my question.
That must meant that Bob and rest of GPTC are stepping up to the Penn Relays volunteer plate for 2011. Well done!
If Penn Relays has a requirement that Masters Teams must host meets or have a certain level of volunteering to participate this should be clearly stated and should apply to all teams, not just TNT and GPTC. My info about TNT did come from Kyle.
Masters athletes are of all ages and stages of their life. I currently have children 3, 12, and 17 years old who take priority of my time. I do volunteer when I can in Master’s track but also help on the College and High School level. I have my own business and deliver babies for a living so I am very busy. Many times can’t attend meets I would like to, such as Worlds, because of work and family. As I get older, maybe retire, I can see myself spending more time volunteering. I did a medical blog on “Younger Legs…â and that was a way I could contribute to Masters Track without taking time away from my other commitments.
I think strong arming people and threatening people is no way to get volunteers. Being nice always gets you further.
Item 1. It seems that there is resentent/jealousy towards other teams’ “stealing” athletes from the “Pool” and there is also defensive resentment against the implication of “being bossed around” by a larger entity. Item 2. It seems that some nice people in the Pa. area have gotten themselves at odds. I think that all of them need to say “I’m sorry for the misunderstanding, let’s all work together for the betterment of our sport”. But then responsible adults NEVER say “I’m sorry”, do they?—it’s too tough to admit one’s shortcomings like; “I’m sorry I was rude”, or “I’m sorry I called you a name”. Item 3.It seems that there are irreconcilable differences in this marriage. Not unlike the “war” between King John and his Barons, this situation seems headed for continued civil unrest. Item 4. Both sides of this issue are quite understandable, both have good points, and both seem to have nice people, dedicated and hard-working individuals, who are judging each other wrongly. Item 5. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong—be man enough to face your wrong and get over it.! This is nothing more than a family squabble! GROW UP !! Lets be friends again.
The name-calling between all groups in this matter is regrettable, but what is truly sad about this Penn Relays disagreement is the attempt to violate the key tenet at the heart of the sport we all love: that at all times, there should be fair and open competition, that the best qualified teams and individuals should be allowed to compete-unfettered by politics or arbitrary rules.
Boy, what a mess. The understanding involved in matters such as this has grown very complicated. As a GPTC member and a Phila Masters member…I am at a loss for understanding. I chose to compete for GPTC back in 2004 because they offered what I was looking for. XC and team involvement at XC, indoor, and outdoor nationals. I felt accepted and welcome and knew of or was friendly with many of the members. Additionally, I am all aware of volunteering. For the past nine years I have been volunteering my services as an assistant coach for WCH XC, did years of service at Brians Run, help out at any road race I can, and helped out with CYO track and xc meets. Since my children are still in HS, our family volunteered for services at the Henderson Invitational, and Warrior Invite. I could go on and on. For some of us, our volunteering services may be in a different place, but we are still volunteering. When situations change, I will give my time to masters meets. For now, I have to place my services where I can. It would be nice if all of this name calling and childish behavior would cease.
Thanks…Bob
This blog battle would be quite amusing if the consequences were not so serious. It seems Joel Dubowâs decision regarding Penn Relays entry requirements has touched off a firestorm. Some have rushed to his defense because he has expended many hours in a volunteer effort. But that does not atone for his poor judgment.
The heart of the matter remains: Should members of a track club or any athlete be subjected to these requirements in order to compete?
Did Dubow compel ALL clubs that sent in an entry application for the Relays to meet the same stringent requirements? How does an âunattachedâ athlete meet these requirements and how do you verify it? If a club was âdeemedâ not to have met the eligibility requirements was their application fee refunded? Or did this money just fill the coffers of Philadelphia Masters? Is the Penn Relays Director aware of Dubowâs capricious manner of handling the Masterâs portion of his meet? For that matter, is he aware that Phila. Masters is profiting from his meet?
As for Dubowâs concise response: What does anything happening in his club have to do with the Penn Relays? The fact that he canât convince his club members to volunteer or that his club is âattritingâ members has no bearing on who should be eligible to compete in the Penn Relays. You are of a certain age with a verifiable qualifying time and you pay your entry fee â you are eligible. Period.
Years ago Phila. Masters had a reputation of putting on a robust schedule of well-run, well-attended, well-officiated meets. Their results filled pages of National Masters News every issue. Sadly, this is no longer the case.
Is it possible that Phila. Mastersâ loss of volunteers and members are the direct result of Dubowâs involvement? Athletes donât quit a club and go through the hassle of forming a new club if they are content with the original club. If many of TNT & GPTC members originally belonged to Phila. Masters and left then it seems that the problem is within Phila. Masters and not with the other clubs.
A quick check of the websites of the Masters teams that competed at the Penn Relays confirms a previous commenterâs suspicion that not all teams were held to the same standard. Only a few clubs present at the Penn Relays held any track meets. Most just compete at other meets. Imagine my friend, Bill Collins of Houston Elite arguably one of the greatest Masters sprinters of all time, not being able to compete because his club does not conduct track meets! Obviously, this rule was only applied to clubs that compete locally against Philly Masters. That begs the question why? To keep local competitors out of the Penn Relays? Or to try to force those clubsâ members to rejoin Philly Masters? Bad form.
Thanks for the follow ups to this matter. Support of one another is the key factor. I am friends with members of PMTC, Athena, and any other club for that matter. We share a bond of competition and wish to do so into old age. I support the efforts of all of my fellow GPTC members, possums, and other clubs. Have a laugh!
Bob
I’ve lost a lot of faith in masters track and specifically Penn.
There was a time when Philly Masters was really something, and for the most part in those days we did not hear about how great or “right” the “leader” was.
When burnout occurs, it’s time for a change.
TinkerBell, you said a lot in 3 short sentences! However, I donât believe you should be disillusioned with masters track â only with the people with limited vision running it. As for UPenn, they are probably totally unaware of the situation and therefore blameless.
Your 2nd sentence is really the heart of the matter. When the clubâs primary concern is the betterment of the sport, embarrassing situations like this are easily avoided. Your only job is to do your best, compete fairly, encourage others to join in the competition, respect your officials, and help promote the growth in competitive opportunities. Leave the glory seeking to the track or field.
Ego is what I believe was the cause of this issue, not burnout. There is an air of pomposity and elitism assumed when a highly educated individual has a history of refusing to take responsibility for his/her mistakes, as if that learned degree preempts any blame being assigned to them. No amount of psychobabble, verbosity, or petulancy changes the responsibility for actions taken. When such an individual feels no error was made and attempts to shift any blame to others for his/her actions, one should question their fitness as a leader.
This action was clearly discriminatory, as others have commented. It was not required of all clubs. The situation does not appear to have been resolved nor does it seem to be fading away – witness the continued comments and the sheer number of comments on this blog alone.
I wish to respond to several disparaging remarks made by Mr. Dubow about the upcoming August 15th Philadelphia Track Pentathlon & Throws Triathlon, sponsored by Philadelphia Athletic Charities & Greater Philadelphia Track Club.
(1) The format of this Pen/Tri competition by its very nature limits the number of athletes that can take part in it (not so with an all-comers meet), and so comparing numbers of participants from two very different meet formats is like comparing apples and oranges. As someone who has organized many all-comers meets, the amount of effort from all concerned in putting on this Pen/Tri is on par or surpasses the amount of effort to produce any all-comers meet. In any case, this slightly revised format can accommodate more athletes than the previous Philly Masters Pen/Tri versions.
(2) Yes, Ray Feick is in charge of the Throws Triathlon part of this competition. That he also happens to be a member of Philadelphia Masters is not of significance here. We all wear many hats in this sport. As a nationally-recognized throws expert/athlete/official, Ray is a supporter of any activity or organization that gives throwers an opportunity to compete in their beloved events, since they have far fewer chances to do so than other track athletes. That is the reason Ray has graciously agreed to take on such duties for this event.
(3) In disparaging this event, you also are undermining the fine efforts of Philadelphia Athletic Charities to maintain and improve the nationally-known Belmont Plateau Cross-Country venue, which the proceeds from this event will benefit.
(4) Your contention that PAC & GPTC’s Pentathlon/Triathlon should be considered partially a Philadelphia Masters meet was insulting. Your reasoning was that they are borrowing PMTF’s multi-lane handheld timer and that several PMTF members are working at the Pen/Tri. Both of these facts are indeed true, however:
(a) The PMTF members being used at the Pen/Tri meet are being employed in their official capacity as (paid) USATF Officials. The fact that members of your club are engaged in either an official capacity or as volunteers does not mean the meet is yours. At the recent Philadelphia Masters Throw-a-thon all volunteers were from GPTC or TNT. Except for Ray Feick, who was the meet director, I did not see any member of PMTF that was not paid to be there as an official. Would it be fair to say that the Throw-a-thon was partially a GPTC/TNT meet? You have members who assist a great deal in your club’s operation. These members have extensive ties to other clubs; does that make all Philly Masters meets “de facto” meets of these other clubs? Of course not!! The same reasoning applies to this Pen/Tri event.
(b) As for the timer, this equipment was purchased when I was president of Philly Masters as a means to improve the reliability of our meet results until FAT equipment could be purchased. You may recall that your fondest desire was the purchase of an electronic clock to be placed at the finish line and the athletes could simply look at the clock as they crossed the finish line. This would eliminate the expense of hiring USATF Officials and save time in compiling and posting the results. Your goal was to run “informal” meets. My goal was to offer athletes of all calibers an enjoyable, competitive experience with ranking qualified results.
You once referred to me as “politically non-astute and interpersonally insensitive”. Now you may have a PhD in psychology but even a glorified stock boy knows it’s not politically astute to insult athletes, other track clubs, and meet directors, especially if you wish to have good working relationships with these people in the future. Is that interpersonally insensitive or just plain stupid?
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