Results botched at Landover nationals? Triage is under way
The hurdlers are outraged. Runners are up in arms. Even the high jumpers have questions. How much is wrong in the posted results of Landover nationals? M35 hurdler Don Drummond posted this comment today: “Hurdle results were not correct. I went to the Meet Manager who was performing the finish times to see a picture and he openly admitted that they did not have a photo and (there) were a lot of mistakes. I asked where the times came from and no answer, so these were probably hand times or just made up results.” Specifically, M40 Johnny Watson should not have been given a time of 8.14, an American record. Rod Jett’s listed AR of 8.22 “was not broken,” Don insists. Earl Fee, the great Canadian champion, ran the 800 in somewhere between 2:50 and 2:53 at age 80, but results say: “under review.” The listed M80 world indoor record is 3:07.66 by Joseph King. (Earl’s birthday is March 22, 1929, but he’s listed in the M75 results. Age as of Day 1 of the meet determines age group, but not records.)
The M45 hurdles results are boogered, according to my sources.
Regarding Karl’s and Johnny’s time . . . . I believe the M40-49 high hurdle races were combined as one race. Plus one of the athletes appeared to false start . . . Dexter hesitated and didn’t run — hence no mark for Dexter.
And another says:
Karl Smith . . . dominated the 60 hurdles event at Landover (M45) and is given a 4th-place time of 12.12. Karl, I would guess, won by at least 2 full seconds. . . . 8 men in the M30-35-40 group of 60 hurdlers (apparently they ran them all together) “ran” 8.32 or better, including John McKenzie, who ran 11.02 in 2007 as part of pentathlon at Boston. The odds of this happening are about 1 in 100,000,000,000,000.
Here are the currently posted results:
Event 640 M30 60 Meter Hurdles
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Name Age Team Finals
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1 Negasi Gerima M31 Unattached,Baltimor 8.01
2 John Nasser M30 Unattached,Halethor 8.02
3 Jason Sims M32 Unattached,Fife, WA 8.28
Event 640 M35 60 Meter Hurdles
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Name Age Team Finals
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1 Don Drummond M39 Southwest Sp,Lawren 8.00
2 Andrew Hogue M35 Nike Central,New Yo 8.12
Event 640 M40 60 Meter Hurdles
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Name Age Team Finals
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1 Johnny Watson M41 So Cal Track,Bakers 8.14
2 Reginald Thornton M43 Unattached,Forestvi 8.30
3 John McKenzie M43 Potomac Vall,Silver 8.32Event 642 M45 60 Meter Hurdles
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Name Age Team Finals
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1 Michael Burke M46 Unattached,Ephrata, 9.24
2 Michael Jones M49 Unattached,Durham, 10.79
3 Howard Lindsay M45 Unattached,New York 11.82
4 Karl Smith M49 Unattached,Silver S 12.12
5 Joseph Ols M45 Unattached,Los Gato 18.32
— Dexter McCloud M48 Unattached,Norcross DNF
— Kerry Sloan M46 A Running St,Harker DNS
— Kent Wilson
M45 Unattached,Corona, DNS
One writes about the W55 400:
There is no way in the world that Jacquie Board could have been that close to Karla (Del Grande). . . . Karla Del Grande is listed as beating Jacquie by 0.78 seconds (72.44 to 73.22). . . . I’m guessing that Karla beat Jacquie by 7 to 12 seconds. Karla’s time looks much too slow.
Results from the W40 4×400 are missing online; Athena TC elite ran about 4:13.
Some mistakes online have been corrected, including one in the M50 high jump: “Results show (Thomas) Foley at 1.75. He only cleared 1.70,” one jumper told me over the weekend. It’s now 1.70 for Foley.
38 Responses
In the M40 Mile, Andrew Duncan is listed as DNS, when in fact he was the race winner.
In the hurdle race that combined M30, M35, and M40, all eight men are listed as running 8.32 or better, even though the American M40 record is 8.22. Furthermore, one of the men in this group of eight ran 11.02 at Boston in 2007. Looks like there are anywhere from two to eight errors in this one race (either that, or this was the greatest field in the history of the world).
I thought the running clock showed 68 point for Karla and 2:48 point for Earl in their events.
On the bright side, I heard that the meet ran on schedule. Anyone experience any delays?
Just confirmed through a competitor that the results for the W55 400 are a travesty (multiple major errors). The competitor may add some detail.
The M70 mile results were wrong initially, giving third place to the the runner who actual was 5th (he was also given a time about 40 seconds faster than he ran). Those results were corrected the next day. The M70 4X800 Non club Relay was won by the 65 Plus team in 12:59 but results show a non club team running 9:59. The only other M70 Team was a club team that ran 14:06, so who knows who the other team really was. On Sunday in the M70 800, Sid Howard and Mack Stewart ran one and two during the race with Thom Weddle and myself running well behind them. The posted results show Sid with a new AR, Thom in second place with his correct time, Mack in third with my time and myself in fourth with a made up time. Mack was actual second and well ahead of both Thom and myself at the finish.
I will also add that check in for the men’s 800 was amateur hour. For a National Championship, we deserve better.
Sorry, but although I once again truly enjoyed the comraderie of my fellow masters competitors at the Nationals, the FAT crew was a travesty. I don’t think that they got ANY of the 4×800 relays correct and too bad for the M60 guys (Frank Condon, Harry Nolan and others) who crushed the relay record but it won’t be ratified because the FAT crew couldn’t find the offical time. The M50 4×800 was similar and they finally just gave out the medals with no times able to be found. And then again in the 4×400. I have run there a number of times and each time there have been major screw ups. I was told not to worry because they would have a different crew working it -not true. The same people. What a mess.
My story about the W55 400 metres — I was surprised to find out on Sunday a.m. that my result didn’t appear. When I asked, I was told that my hip number wasn’t clear, so I wasn’t identified in the photo finish and that my time was about 72 seconds. My husband had me about 66-67 seconds. Rex Harvey kindly said, I saw your race, you clearly won, you’re a guest, we’ll fix this. I was shown the finish line photo, but I said that’s not me, that’s Coreen Steinbach, followed by Jackie Board. One tall and blonde, the other, black and powerful, neither looks like me. Apparently the photo finish line camera wasn’t on for me! So Rex had the awards table results fixed to show me in first with NT followed by Coreen and Jackie. Somehow what got reposted was Coreen changed to DNS. I’ve emailed racedirector@att.net to again get the results corrected. In the first results posted for the W55 60 metres, Catherine Nicoletti was shown with a time. Funny, since she was still in Colorado. We got that one corrected properly.
I enjoyed meeting old and new friends, the friendliness of the officials, the facility, Peter Taylor’s announcing, and the competition, but the standard of the photo timing and results keeping was poor. I feel very badly for anyone like Earl Fee, who had a world record that may not be able to be recognized. It would have been very special for him to step into M80 on his birthday with a new record.
No, Ken, the meet did not run on time – at least on Saturday. My heat of the mile was about a half hour late, which I planned for so it wasn’t a big deal for me anyway. Friday’s events seemed to go on schedule. I left Saturday, so don’t know about Sunday.
Let me add my comments about FAT: One of the things I do in my spare time is work the FAT and Hy-Tek computers and cameras at our local high school meets (including the Nevada State Meet about 5 times). The system isn’t infallible, and it isn’t truly Fully Automatic except, I imagine the top of the line systems used for the elites. Using the system effectively requires a bit of experience on the part of the timing officials and starters. Sometimes you can do everything right, and still for some reason the camera doesn’t get any pictures; backup cameras are a must.
In the distance races, meet officials also need to realize that it’s just as important to have lap counters in the timing booth as it is on the track. The FAT guy in the booth can’t be left on his own to determine who is finishing and who is lapped – it’s just not possible. We have 2-3 guys doing that for him in our meets. If you don’t have guys in the booth counting laps, then they need to check the results with officials at the finish line.
As soon as I saw the listed results for the W55 400, I knew there was a problem. I almost wrote Karla Del Grande to ask her if she’d stopped to tie her shoe on the way.
I also saw the “under review” beside Earl Fee’s result in the 800 meters. Thanks to Doug Smith’s Ontario Masters newsletter, more than a thousand Canadian masters athletes knew about Earl’s birthdate and his planned assault on the M80 record books. I do hope, for his sake, that this “review” will be completed quickly giving Earl his due.
I do not want to give the impression that I am concerned only with the results of my compatriots. I also read Peter Taylor’s comments on the hassles being experienced by American masters athletes performing so magnificently at high level open meets, and then having their performances doubted or, worse, discarded. My sympathies to them. I am in total agreement with Peter that all of us, whatever our nationality, should be appreciative of opportunities provided to “show what we can do” in open meets. Letters expressing that appreciation to those meet directors is an excellent idea.
Finally, my sympathy to Peter. Though I wasn’t there, I always read his reports on his announcing efforts, and I appreciate his efforts and devotion to masters athletics.
Reports from the pole vault indicate they had outstanding officials. They did report seeing a time of 16.49 after a heat of the 200 though!
From what I have read of the comments I am glad I did not go If I were looking for PR’s or to set records, oh well. Makes me wonder about how the Outdoor Nationals might be. I still plan to go though.
Winning vs Time go hand in hand. Plus it has been said “We get what we pay for.” Who picked the officals? How much planing and testing took place? These are also key factor.
Thanks to a fantastic crew of officials, the throwing events went off without a hitch and on schedule (save for three flights starting a few minutes late — one each day). It was a very aggressive and tight schedule and the officials set a pace that made it happen. The ring officials were VERY ably matched by our outstanding weights and measures guys, Alex Jupiter and Charlie Day, who got implements weighed, measured and delivered to the circles in plenty of time for each flight. Everyone cooperated so that the delays for steel tape measurements and rechecking implements were kept to an absolute minimum. Kudos to the officials for making it all run so smoothly.
M40-49 4×800 relay results were correct at the awards table. Greater Philadelphia received their Golds but the posted result has them last in well over 4:00+
I had them in 3:46.7 winning easily. I’m sure it will take time to sort all this out and an effort will be made to rectify.
All in all, a great meet.
The officials were great. The results for the pentathlon on Thursday were not available after the individual events. We did not receive our hurdle results (1st event) until after the HJ (4th event), however the flow from one event to the next went extremely well with little or no waiting. Good planning and good officiating for the pentathlon at the various events.
Hi Ken, I appreciate that you are commenting on the times, but I take offense to calling Henry Rono’s time “pathetic.” The guy is a legend and he was out there trying. That what this meet is about isn’t it?
Are you kidding? We are master’s!! Where else are you going to compete. Why don’t you build a track in your backyard with electronic timing. You guys are kidding, right. That meet was fantastic. We are getting too bogged down with all this results. I am sure they will fix it. Please, let’s all see the big picture of why we are all out there!!!
Both the Shot and Weight throw results listed in the national rnakings are incorrect. I place 5th in Landover with a weight throw of 13.3 and 7th in the shot with a put of 11.4 and am not listed.
Frank
The comments attributed to Anonymous, posted at 1:22 p.m., are mine. Sorry, I should have previewed my posting. I’m hoping that the results will soon be corrected to show Coreen Steinbach as the American Champion in W55 400, not DNS.
My experience in the Landover field-events (long
jump, triple jump, high jump, and shot put)
were great. The officials did a great job on
these particular events.
That’s fine and dandy until it prevents someone who ran a record from getting a record because the results are not correct.
Even though I was disappointed in my own performance, the officials running the high jump did a great job with clarity, punctuality and keeping the event moving along following established guidelines. I question the number of false starts allowed during the sprints, but that may be a larger USATF Masters issue.
Ditto to Gary’s comments.
Henry Rono has been on a journey from being one of the greatest athletes in the history of the sport, through alcoholism, destitute poverty and homelessness.
Given his history, that he is out running again says more about him as a man than if he had achieved a master’s world record off genetics and moderate training regime.
Accurate timing and correct placement of finishers are the very least masters should expect from a meet. This was the Indoor National Championship meet, not some all-comers held at the local track. No other national championship would accept this; why should the masters? “We are getting bogged down with all this (sic) results?” Why are we there?
Everyone owes Rex Harvey a big thank you for his efforts to untangle the timing and placement mess. As mentioned elsewhere, the hurdles results were a joke.
Joe Johnson and I twisted in the wind for about an hour and a half not knowing who had won the M65 race. It took that long to get a results sheet. I had called my wife and told her I thought I had lost, only to find out I had won. (I had almost adjusted to a loss.)
Rex discovered that our M65 photo had been used to place the M60 finish. An honest mistake perhaps that would have taken forever to untangle without Rex. I notice that the M60 results are still without times.
The results in some of the other hurdle age groups were known to have been incorrect when they were posted. They should not have been posted with such obvious errors when corrected info was available, primarily due to Rex’s knowing the competitors, asking us when he didn’t know, and staying long after the races were over to sort it out.
But they still originally posted DNS for winner Karl Smith in the M45 HH and listed Dexter as a winner when he was DNF. We all know Karl won his race, but the results now show him as 4th. Corrected information was available Saturday afternoon, and I witnessed corrections made by Rex on the sheets.
These sloppy results will be picked up by other media outlets and track sites and be perpetuated.
Is there some way that Rex Harvey could correct the times for ALL of the events including the 4 x 400 W40-49 which was a world record?!!!!! 🙂
W50 400 times were also slow as were the W55
I’m sure there was quite a lot of effort put in to pull this meet off. Congrats to them all! I don’t believe any of the technical issues were planned,do you? Just as runners don’t have the best of days, on that “planned” day to peak, officials,equipment etc…sometimes don’t have the best of days. Guess what and remember “that’s Track & Field”!
$11,000. Yes, that’s $22 an hour for 500 hours. And we owe Craig Chasse (president of the host Potomac Valley Track Club) that much money if we cut off his pay at 500 hours and restrict him to $22 per hour. But Craig did it for free! He, Jay Wind, Bob Weiner, John Haubert, and others got together to plan for and execute a fantastic meet.
The fact that FAT apparently failed through (a) human error, (b) mechanical error, or (c) both human and mechanical error is something that will need to be thoroughly investigated. Regardless, congratulations to Craig, Jay, Bob, John, and the others for putting this thing together.
I was wondering if you could post the open womens 40-49 4×400 meter relay time. There is only one teams time down in the results page. Please make the posting since our team won the womens open division. It would be nice to see what time we ran it in. Thank you in advance.
Ocean,
Did you mean W50? As a spectator to the races the results of the women’s 40-49 4x400m the winners were Athena A in 4.14.59 followed by Millrose AC in 4:22.29, and then Athena B in 4:29 (approximately).
The single club currently listed in the results for W40-49 4x400m as Non-Club 1’A’ in 4:22.29 is Millrose.
I was at the meet on Saturday. I sat almost directly behind the finishline. One thing I noticed on the scoreboard showing the running time, was that it seemed to show a split (quite often) when no one was crossing the line. I couldn’t quite tell if it was picking up random people around the finish area or maybe the longjumpers who were competing behind the finish line. Reading all these examples of errors makes me wonder if these “splits” may have caused some errors.
I ran in the womens 40-49 year old open category not the womens 50 year old group. I believe the time posted was athena’s not ours. I don’t think we ran the time posted. Any info please let me know. Thanks.
Sorry I meant Millrose. I ran in the 2nd heat womens 4×400 meter relay. I know we ran faster then the womens open 30 year old 4×400.
The open womens 4×400 meter relay means non club. Millrose is a club so I was told that the winner of the heat was not Millrose but a team of women that were all from different teams.
my thanks to all the officials and to mr taylor and the other gentleman announcer. the officials in the high jump were very professional as were the long jump officials. i would have preferred the “board official ” to have placed a marker on the board to show where the jumper took off from ( it’s difficult if there’s no one there to let you know if your on the board of a foot behind ) there was a delay with the start of the hurdles. instead of running them when the trials( which were eliminated ) were supposed to be run at 2:45, they went off around 4:15. the results were not available until around 6pm. i think they did the best they could and tried to pacify a bunch of tired , grouchy old hurdlers, myself included. all and all, i am very proud to have competed in my 5th national masters championship at age 55 and have begun to try to figure out a way to get to 60. the DC area is splendid and so is the Air and Space Museum by dulles. congratulations to all and especially to bill murray who set a new world record in the M55 pent. on friday and won the HJ and the LJ on saturday, with better marks across the board than when we were M50.nice going ! albert
I’ve really enjoyed reading your articles. You obviously know what you are talking about! Your site is so easy to navigate too, I’ve bookmarked it in my favourites 😀
Now I have conserns about the times.how can some one finish 3 sec behind you and is 70m behind to hurdles. Behind.only 1sec behind.I finish one point from 3 in the men M50 pentathlon finished after dislocateing anckel in long jump may be out for season to come up 1 point short
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