1. Pole Vault Power - August 13, 2010

   The team scores at masters nationals are a joke anyway since they make no effort to enforce any sort of rules about athletes residing in or near a given association.

   It would be better if they did separate team scores for each age division and each gender. And had some sort of residency rules!

2. Tony Plaster - August 13, 2010

   Looks to me like Golden West took it pretty seriously…… Always like to see a race.

3. mary Harada - August 13, 2010

   I was amazed to see so many SoCal and Golden West athletes risking their health running multiple relays on the last afternoon in the heat of the day. The team championship is a joke – while I am all for encouraging participation, it is sad to see this taken to such absurd lengths.
   Team championships encourage clubs to athlete shop – recruiting members from the far reaches of the country – what benefit does an athlete from Florida get in belonging to a West Coast team? I belong to a club because of the weekly coached practices, the friendship with club members over many years (25 years) and the fine coaching we have. Joining a club in another part of the country whose practices I could not attend just so I can say I am “attached” and ring up a few points at a national championship would be a very poor substitute.

4. Marty Wright - August 13, 2010

   Hello- I’m with the Texas Throwers club. We are looking for sprinters,distance runners and jumpers to join our club for next year’s Nationals. Please call us at 555-5150. Thank you!

5. chuckxc - August 13, 2010

   Ken, was hoping to meet you at SAC but our paths did not cross. This post touches on several sore points with me. Mainly club scoring in masters track and residency rules.

   1) Let me say, though, I think you are being overly harsh about Mark’s press release. Yes, the Lakers don’t issues releases. that’s because we just saw them win on TV. I’ve used press releases outside of USATF myself because I want to reach a different audience. Personally, I would not pay for it, but perhaps SoCal’s checkbook is bigger than ours (LOL).

   2)I think Pole Vault Power is right. Scoring by age groups (even if it’s 10 or 20 years) would have much more meaning than the current overall method of scoring. The current system is based on the assumption that every age group is comparable. This is simply not realistic ! And masters track is the only level where there is no seperate gender scoring. Youth, high school, college, USATF Open Clubs all score males and females on their own. What gives ?
   Mark and I spoke briefly at SAC about club scoring. I know he feels that the scoring helps promote more participation at Nats. But I don’t see it. Perhaps Pete Taylor, who keeps track of attendance figures, would know if there is any trend re: attendance since the genesis of club scoring.

   3) For our club, Nationals is an opportunity for each teammate to attempt to achieve their personal goals. If that means scratching an event to save their efforts for another event, so be it.
   Besides, when I got home from SAC and saw the scores posted, we some how lost 20 points. I know GPTC scored 97 points, but they only gaves us 77.
   Now, if we had taken the time and effort to make a run at this club title, how would I have protested this ? Were these scores posted at the track ? Can some one request an audit of these scores ? It’s just not worth the aggravation for me to follow up on it, but it brings up the issue… there are bound to be scoring mistakes and the difference between the top two clubs was not big. How would one even approach the monumental task of verifying club results ?

   4) As for residency rules, I’ve always believed that a USATF member should be allowed to join ANY club of their choosing in the USA. The current structure of so many associations in USATF is a model inherited from the AAU days. It is unrealistic, in this day and age, to restriot USATF members to these little geographic areas. However, what really peeves me about USATF stance on this is that Masters Track allows transfers and yet LDR does not (for team scoring purposes). So our out-of-state members can score for us at Sacramento but not at the upcoming Syracuse 5K road Nationals ??? That is entirely inconsistent. At least if transfers were disallowed on both masters track and LDR, I would understand. I would not like it, but it would be consistent.

   There… no more club scoring and no more associations ! My work here is done. LOL. Ahhh… nobody cares.

6. Terry Parks - August 13, 2010

   I was impressed by So Cal’s organization and performances at the Nationals. Say what you want, but I felt that the team cared about Masters Track & Field and had passion. I spoke to Mark Cleary after the Nationals and he is dedicated to Masters Track and is proud of his athletes.

   As for what benefits being a member of the team offers, there are many. First in my book is being on a team that cares about your sport. Mark is the Masters chair in the Southern CA association, runs Masters meets, and runs in Masters meets. Mark cares about Masters Track.

   As for coaching, So Cal offers online coaching. Online coaching may not be for everyone, but I have an online coach in England and it has worked out well for me. Plus, So Cal is having a team training camp next month.

   Another benefit of strength in numbers is the ability to get travel discounts. As Masters, we have to pay our own way, so having travel discounts available from the team is a big deal.

   I have never thought that being the best was a joke, and I have been proud to witness many great performances this year including Mary’s. Masters striving to win has inspired me. Watching Lisa Valle of So Cal run was just fantastic. So Cal athletes are having fun and trying to win. That is something that I wanted to be a part of, so I am a proud new member of the So Cal Track Club. I hope to score some points for my team in the future Nationals and be a part of the winning tradition of the club.

7. Cindy Lea Arbelbide - August 13, 2010

   I am reminded of legendary UCLA coach John Wooden’s comments “I instructed players to control their emotions after a big victory: “Let the fans and alumni make fools of themselves. Don’t you do it.” I wanted student-athletes to behave in a sportsmanship like manner regardless of the outcome: “When you leave the arena, a bystander shouldn’t be able to tell by your demeanor whether you won or lost.”

   Coach also offered, “I want to be clear about something: “Winning or losing matters. …. But my belief is that winning and losing are a by-product, offshoot, consequences of something more important. … I sought to figure out what that “something” was. …. “Do not judge yourself by what you have achieved but rather by what you could and should have achieved given your potential – if you’d never ceased trying to be the best you could be.”

8. Nolan Shaheed - August 13, 2010

   Sometimes when you are 96 years old or 86 or 76, running for a team is no joke.It is a way for you to contribute and show that you have worth and value for something in a society that does not cater to the elderly.Some would say that Masters T&F is a joke with people past their prime risking injury for a lousy medal and only ten percent of us get medals.

   Masters T&F needs all the positive publicity we can get to attract new members and If running for a team is your inspiration to compete, then run proudly for that team.

   Leland is 96 years old and won 7 gold medals in Sacramento for So Cal. If Mark Cleary had not recruited him, he would be in an old folks home boring people with what he did 75 years ago. We make a BIG fuss when he comes around and let him know how proud we are of him, and he WILL be around for a long time because he knows he’s appreciated.

   If you want to beat SoCal, find your own Leland or two, or three.

9. Chipinsd - August 13, 2010

   I don’t know what your problem is Ken. It sounds like you have a personal issue with Mark Cleary? You bitch and bitch about gaining attention for masters track and then one who goes out of his way to promote you kick him! We need to get an identity and in American team association is the best way. When I watch the few track offerings on TV I hear/see them identify that athelete with a team. I just joined SoCal. I live in San Diego. I had competed against these guys for 5 years. I have only seen a professional attitude and team effort. As to other teams (that you don’t bash) I see them giving their best efforts. At Nationals during the relays most of the Golden West folks were there cheering their team on. It was so competitive. It made the last day/events fun! Get over your personal issues Ken.

10. peter taylor - August 13, 2010

    Chuck Shields, because you called my name I will respond with what I think. Essentially, I think the question is the following:

    Does club scoring promote participation at Nationals?

    Phrased another way, has the presence of club scoring increased the turnout at RECENT Nationals?

    The problem, of course, is that many factors increase our turnouts at Nationals, and many other factors discourage people from entering these meets. Thus, I will say the following:

    1. I believe that club scoring moderately increases turnout at Nationals. Thus, I think that turnouts at Sacramento (2010), Oshkosh (2009), Spokane (2008), etc., would have been modestly lower without team scoring. Whether the impact will be seen in the future I do not know. It would be hard to see it having a negative impact, but it may eventually go to “flat.”

    2. Southeastern Masters (Raleigh) experimented with club scoring this year (with awards), and it seemed to help attendance at that meet.

11. chuckxc - August 13, 2010

    Pete,

    as always, your input is appreciated.. you know the numbers.

12. tbone - August 13, 2010

    I’m going to clean up next year when I bring my “Unattached” club!

    If you want to have some fun with numbers, perhaps you could slice and dice the results to create more competition: best women’s sprint club, best distance club, best 80-99 steeplechase club, best vertical jumps club, best male hurdlers-who-also-throw club, etc.

    There are ways to do it to have real club competitions where the size of the roster isn’t the determining factor.

13. peter taylor - August 13, 2010

    Thank you, Chuck, I do know a little bit about the numbers. And in looking back at Boston 2010 I believe that meet’s attendance was helped a bit by the prospect of vigorous team competition.

    Just reviewed my e-mails and saw that on March 11 of this year I predicted 1475 entrants for Sacramento (e-mail was to John McCasey). As the final turnout was somewhere in the 1400s I believe my criteria for prediction are decent.

    I’m not an aficionado of cross country the way you are, Chuck, and thus I am now thinking about the Hartshorne Mile in January 2011 and the US Indoor Masters in Albuquerque in March 2011 (not that I will necessarily announce both).

    Hartshorne Mile had its best fields ever in 2010; can it do better in 2011? As for Albuquerque, I have my own set of predictors on attendance for that meet but will not reveal what I think at this time.

14. mary Harada - August 13, 2010

    Having just done an extensive study of the team scoring – ie – scrolling down and up the list twice to find my club, all I can say is – that for a club of 35 paid members and only 3 at the meet- running only 3 middle distance events for a total of 5 races – we did very well – getting 17 points to finish tied for 62nd place. Did the prospect of scoring for the club bring out all 3 of us to compete – absolutely NO. It is a very long trip from the Boston area to Sac – most of our members are road runners – not track folks and two of the three came because of the location – ie – family and friends in the area. We have no sprinters, no throwers, no multi-event competitors – just 3 of us running the 5k, 1500, and 800. We might have scored more points if I had run the 800 but I did not because of the heat.
    Will more of us go to the indoor meet? Most likely I will be the only one – and next summer’s outdoor meet – again – most likely I will be the only one. My club is a womens club meaning that even if we grew our membership by recruiting nation-wide – we would not have the numbers to compete against the co-ed teams. There are just more men than women competing in track meets. The odds will always be against us in this sort of team competition that lumps together men and women and all ages and events.
    If team competition attracts members to travel to track meets – I am all for it. Whatever works – fine with me. But look at the results- Two clubs in contention for the “prize” of the most points – SoCal and Golden West. It was a competition between two clubs that have athletes in all the track, field, and race walking events. One is a club local to the area – the other – SoCal – that recruits from around the country. I do not know the recruiting area of Golden West -perhaps they do as well. The rest are just along for the ride – so to speak. But I must say I am delighted that my little club with 35 members and 3 competitors at the meet scored more points than the entire country of Canada!
    Perhaps I should put out a press release about that.

15. Dave Neumann - August 13, 2010

    Agree with those who’ve said that whatever can be done to increase participation in Masters TF is a positive. I run for Mass Velocity which is New England based but anyone can join no matter where they reside. It’s difficult for the many members to actually train together but the camaraderie developed in emails and at the competition venues is what’s it all about. I consider my teammates good friends. It’s exhilirating to root for your team. After all it’s a competitive sport. So what if SoCal recruits? What club of any kind doesen’t want new members? To those who are against clubs, you are free to remain unattached.

16. Liz Palmer - August 13, 2010

    For the issue or question of recruiting, Golden West doesn’t recruit. We get new members from people seeing and meeting our team at events and practice, or by knowing a current member. GWAC has 6 members (out of 100) who are outside the Pacific Association. Two of the members used to live in Sacramento and moved out of state. The other 4 met our team at national competitions and liked us enough to ask to join our club. Our first response to anyone who lives outside the Sacramento area is to ask them if there is a more local club for them to join. We always encourage out of area people to find a club that is geographically close to them.

    The club championship title race was very exciting, and all of our relay members had a great time. If we weren’t running in a relay, we were cheering for our teammates, and so many of our club members commented on the great experience they had at the national meet. Congratulations to the So Cal Track Club on winning the team title!

17. Byrke Beller - August 13, 2010

    I have tended to lean towards Ken’s sentiments regarding teams, team scoring and team recruiting. I admit, however, I had not really considered the matter very much until reading the above comments. Especially poignant were those of Terry Parks and Nolan Shaheed. They make powerful arguments in favor of teams.
    I was at Sacto Nats and was impressed by the support of So Cal TC (and other TCs) for their athletes. There were tents, massage therapists, team comraderie, etc. I was there as an “Oregon Track Club Masters” athlete. Was my club there supporting me? Nope. Tent? Nope. Anybody else running with an OTCM singlet? Nope. Would I be more inclined to travel to a meet that other team members were at? Yep. I say good on ’em for running the relays hard. Anything that motivates people to run is good IMO. Maybe I’ll see if SCTC would have me.
    My 2 cents

18. Bubba Sparks - August 13, 2010

    Whether a fan of teams, or even Mark Cleary, he has done one heck of a job putting a real team together. I was still around UC Irvine when he started it and it’s been very impressive to watch the development.

19. Andrew Hecker - August 14, 2010

    Stop the presses. I think there must have been a scoring error. The team I am listed as running for easily outdistanced all of the clubs on this list. “Unattached.”

20. Reid Harter - August 14, 2010

    Clearly Mark Cleary does a fine job organizing and coaching the So Cal Track Club. Mark Clearly also clearly takes the time and effort to direct the master elite races held at USATF open championships. Coach Cleary also clearly spends hours and days organizing and performing manual labor (such as moving hurdles–which I helped him with several years ago) as host of Southern California Association and Regional cross country and track and field championships. So, clearly masters track and field would be diminished without Mark Cleary.

21. Mike Sullivan - August 14, 2010

    I am with Mr. Hecker on this one but always love it when Ken stirs the pot….20 posts and counting …
    once a newspaperman always a … I think for me, and who really cares about me or what I think, its not about the scores, times, teams, places, its about the day to day training….. Training continues Day 20…South Mountain calls this morning…..Awesome Arizona Sunrises…..Its A Great Day to Be Alive, Sully

22. Kettrell Berry - August 14, 2010

    Sully I’m with you my friend. Lets just train, have fun and rejoice at being alive.

23. Joseph Burleson - August 16, 2010

    Mark Cleary’s dedication and enthusiasm knows no bounds. And every time I have every seen him, he is never too busy to help out with info, observations or whatever. Two examples: Although I hardly know Mark, he made a point of coming over to me after the 800 trials in Finland and asked me about a (benign) bone spur he spotted on my knee, to which I laughed and told him that no one ever noticed it. In Riccione, he and a dozen of his team mates were walking by while I was unsuccessfully trying to un-park my car between two steel poles. I had to restrain Mark from actually joining his mates in literally picking up my little car and lifting it onto the street; I suggested, instead, that he let the weight throwers and decathlete types help instead! This is the kind of guy that Mark Cleary is–I really have never met anyone else who expresses such selfless decidation to Masters T&F. I know that if he spent more time getting some sleep and getting more of his own training in, he would move way up in the rankings in his events. But he has his goals, and we all benefit tremdndously from his dedication and sacrifices.

24. Don Young - August 17, 2010

    “Leland is 96 years old and won 7 gold medals in Sacramento for So Cal. If Mark Cleary had not recruited him, he would be in an old folks home boring people with what he did 75 years ago.”-Nolan Shaheed

    This made my day 🙂

    I think it’s great that there is some team spirit, even though I ran for “unnatached” this time around . I can be bought for peanuts- literally, a jar of dry roasted would do it;p

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