I stand with the alt-left: So should masters track and field community
With the certainty of offending and losing some readers, I want to say something about our M70 president and his failure to show moral clarity on the Charlottesville horror. Tuesdayâs press conference â in which Trump said âboth sidesâ share blame for Saturdayâs death and injuries â was sickening and shameful. But my disgust â as a Jew and human being acutely aware of the anti-Semitic and racist elements of the âUnite the Rightâ folks Trump wonât properly reject â canât possibly match the revulsion my African-American friends must be feeling. If the Klan marched in La Mesa and saw me on the sidelines, Iâd be safe from attack. My black friends would have no such confidence. When David Duke, the Holocaust denier and former KKK leader, tweets: âThank you President Trump for your honesty & courage to tell the truth about #Charlottesville & condemn the leftist terrorists in BLM/Antifa,â you have to wonder what comes next. Masters track has a history of inclusion and tolerance. We celebrate diversity and make efforts to expand it. Trump is the Anti-Diversity Commander in Chief. Thank God I live in the Peopleâs Republic of California, where the alt-left rules. Neo-Nazis and their enablers and apologists have no place in America. I pray our nation survives Trump. Silence on this issue cannot stand.
Hereâs a choice note posted Monday on Facebook by a former tip-top boss of Patch, where I worked for three years. The author wrote this BEFORE Tuesdayâs unhinged presidential remarks.
Lenny Bruce and George Carlin would thrill at the naughty wordplay. I delight in its passion.
My former boss wrote:
You know, I donât rant much about Trump any more because what value is a rant in the face of a howling shitstorm hurricane of catastrophic human failure and repulsive amoral clownfuckery that never abates? But Trump after Charlottesville is the kind of thing that makes you say âfuck itâ, kick open the Bilco doors and stagger out into the diarrheal maelstrom just to puke out your disgust.
Jesus Samuel Jackson what a useless rancid fuckwad of a human being did this country elect as president. The most generous possible reading you could give of that limp dog dick of a âpresidentialâ response Trump made to the horrors of the weekendâ the MOST generous â is that Trump is such a vile vacuous soulless self-protective shit balloon that he cynically pandered to his base to hold on to what little bacterially valid support he has left. Again: that is the MOST generous reading you could give. That he knew it was wrong not to hit the fucking stopped-in-time softball of a moral quandary that is saying âNazis and white supremacists are a putrid disease that should go fuck themselves perpetually with a bag of broken glassâ â a sentiment that an oak tree is practically sentient enough to express â but didnât do it because he enjoys the slurpy massage his amygdala gets from Steve Bannonâs oily lizard tongue through his ear every day.
The LEAST generous (and maybe most accurate) reading you could give for why the fucking president of the United States couldnât bring himself to denounce racists and hate mongers by specific brand name is that heâs a card carrying white nationalist and racist himself.
And with those two as your possible extremes, the middle ground interpretation is something along the lines of âthe goddamn president is too stupid to understand that powerfully denouncing groups devoted to racism and hate is the EASIEST part of the hardest job on earth and a better path to success in the office than sucking up to the ass-boil of humanity that is his âbase.â
So honestly: Iâm pretty open minded and I try to be fair and Iâve argued before that just because someone voted for Trump doesnât make them a bad person and maybe itâs worth trying to understand WHY they felt they had to make a choice like that so we can address their issues rather than create a bigger problem of polarization and distrust. But then Charlottesville. And then Trump and his âmany sidesâ waffle-pandering. And now i find I donât have any more magnanimity to give.
If you voted for this waste of heat and atoms, no matter your complex reasoning, well fuck you very much. YOU are partially responsible for the fear and sadness now being felt by American minorities who just listened to their president LITERALLY say âhate is wrong but so are you.â YOU are partially responsible for the fact we now all live in a country where garbage human beings preaching hate not only feel they have a voice but that they have an EXECUTIVE SPONSOR and protector in the goddamn Oval Office. And YOU are partially responsible for whatever worse-than-Charlottesville shit is coming our way now that itâs abundantly and repetitively clear thereâs a moral black hole where the leader of the free world should be.
I say âpartiallyâ responsible because even though Iâm feeling tapped of empathy, a problem like Trump requires a lot of societal fucking up that goes beyond any one group. We â our country, our democracy â gave rise to this cancerous piece of shit president, so donât feel smug just because you were clear-eyed enough to say âno wayâ last November. Things you did â or didnât do â as part of the citizenry well before Election Day are also responsible for creating the âpath to victoryâ this conscience-less shit-for-brains took to be our leader.
That said, if you DID vote for him, your culpability is obviously more profound. And Iâm saying Charlottesville is in large part on you.
75 Responses
Stick to track and field Ken. I get enough left wing pravda reading what AP sends out as “news.”
Splashed acid, excrement, rocks, balloons filled with urine, etc., thrown in their faces, blowtorching, kicks, punches, stomping, clubbing with baseball bats, mace, tear gas greeted those who assembled lawfully and peacefully as they were literally pushed out of the area for which they had a permit by Tim Kaine’s State Police stormtroopers into the anti-fa mob. They were fenced in right and left and blocked from retreating by the police. Anticipating the attack, some defended themselves. Blame on both sides? The President was being diplomatic. This riot is the sole responsibilithy the leftist thugs and the police.
Paul Murphy is right, you know. I’m waiting, ready for the call from the modern day Captain John Parker. “… if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.”
I love track and field because I get to compete with athletes of all races, ethnicities, religions, persuasions etc. and we don’t define each other along any of those lines. We are just athletes drawn together by the common bond we share in our love of the sport. I don’t care if I’m in a relay passing a baton to a Libertarian or Democrat or Republican or Green Party member, as long as it’s a clean hand off and we all do our best together. And although the M’s don’t directly compete against the F’s, we are all pulling together for each other. The only dividing lines are our age groups and we all strive to pass through as many of those as possible before it’s over. We are lucky to have the health and time to participate in such a great sport where we can meet people from all walks of life and hopefully get to know each other without labels and without segregating ourselves. Your topic is counter productive and divisive. Your assertion that masters track should stand with ANY political group or movement is way over the top. However, I do think it’s OK to discriminate against race walkers. (Just kidding about the walkers. Thought I’d add some comic relief to lighten the mood.)
Well said, Ken.
Thomas and Paul, my mother was a nurse in the British Army during the Second World War and she was amongst the first to enter Belsen concentration camp after its liberation. She saw first hand what this kind of fanatical nationalism can lead to. It all starts with noble intentions about improving peoples lives and improving prosperity but quickly descends into blaming people who are different, either in terms of creed, colour or opinion. These people then get purged as a form of national and ideological cleansing. The cycle keeps repeating with the intensity ever increasing and only afterwards are the citizens truly shocked at the depravities they have been part of.
I donât care whether we are talking about the extreme right or the extreme left. To me Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Pol Pot and Mao are all one and the same, a curse to be avoided at all costs. Individuals that created a cult of leadership that led their followers to perform unspeakable acts. I would ask of you to do the following:
Watch Leni Riefenstahlâs âTriumph of the Willâ (1935) followed by âMemory of the Campsâ (1985) assembled from documentary footage by Alfred Hitchcock and others shot at the time of the liberation. They mark the start and end of just such a journey.
After that read up on the Milgram experiment and the Stanford prison experiment to see just how easy it is for people to get sucked into this kind of thought.
While the masters track community embraces Ken’s blog as its own, I think we need to remember that it is still Ken’s personal blog. Ken, and Ken alone, controls the content of what appears here. If he wants to go “off topic” once in awhile, so be it. Actually, I think it’s wise that he expresses his First Amendment rights…while he still has them.
Your old boss is humorous, Ken. Good luck with your ctrl-left.
I am with you, Ken.
I agree.. For those telling him to stick to track, you are on his website. How about you not visit the site if you feel the way you do. He is allowed to express himself and go off track on his own website. I appreciate your thoughts on Charlottesville. Its sad and disheartening to see 45 continue to contribute to the division of this country.
I’m in.
Thanks, Ken
RE: E_Grant. Yes this is Ken Stone’s website. Consumers of his content are providing their opinion on the content. He is free to consider our comments, or to ignore them. And we are free to continue to visit the site, or not. But your comment “How about you not visit the site …” does reinforce my perception of your closed Socialist mind. Good Day.
If the world was as embracing as our track meets it would be a much better place for all of us.
A Charlottesville police officer has come forward to express his anger at being told to âstand downâ by the city mayor during violent clashes between protestors. He also claims the protests, which pitched âwhite supremacistsâ against members of Antifa, were âset upâ to further the agenda of the elites.
âWe [Charlotesville police] were ordered to bring the rival groups together. As soon as they were in contact with each other, we were told to stand down. It was outrageous. We werenât allowed to arrest anyone without asking the mayor first. We werenât even allowed to stop the driver as he sped away.â
âThe event was being set up as far back as at least May and it went like clockwork.â
As Masters track is an activity that embraces older Americans, as we can see from some of the comments (Sputto, Murphy), many of the ‘elderly white’ in America comprise Trump’s base. Fortunately, for the sake of America, these people who support a racist president are a minority, and a dying breed.
Track and field will remain on the forefront of promoting diversity and a fellowship among all Americans.
In Toronto, a city of great diversity, when Charlottesville happened, I felt embarrassed for my country, embarrassed the US elected, as the quote reads, a “cancerous piece of sh!t president.”
Thanks Ken. I’m with you.
I guess no one appreciated my race walkers joke.
I agree, it is Ken’s site but I thought the comments section was for comments. Neither side should look to stifle debate. My post wasn’t taking either side, just pointing out how much better the world is when we aren’t all segregating ourselves. Like what I usually experience at our meets, unified in love of sport.
Paul Murphy, In #2 you are blaming ‘State Police stormtroopers’, anti-fa, and leftist thugs. In #14 it has all become part of a plot ‘to further the agenda of the elites’ and the police have become victims. Do you see boogeymen behind every rock?
Here we go. Somebody suggests you don’t have to read something you don’t like and right away, they are a Socialist. Without knowing anything about this person, out comes the label…and who has the closed mind ?
I agree with Ken.
The comments at # 6 by Mike W [no relation] are worth reading.
I predict a record number of comments for this post.
Keeping it within the track and field context, in my experience the only race is the one you enter.
Ken is right! Where is our humanity? There is no place in the world for racism and bigotry. . But, I can guarantee you their opinion would be different if their ancestors where enslaved, raped, hanged and sold at auctions. Keep 45 in your prayers.
Thank you for speaking out Ken. The USA has become a very violent place these days, reminds me a bit of the days of the civil rights movement and the War in Vietnam. I am one of those “elderly white” folks and I deplore the racist remarks of the president and his supporters. When I find myself looking for my baseball cap with the Canadian flag on the back to wear in public rather than one that has USA on it and I hesitate to wear anything with USA on it, I know that hate has the uppermost hand. Name calling is what bullies do. This is Ken’s blog, he is free to post what he believes and those who do not like it are free not to read his posts.
Here’s what REALLY scares me:
“I think a lot more people are going to die before we’re done here”
https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/8/16/16155942/charlottesville-protests-nazis-vice
Others said it earlier but I’ll say it again, “stick to track (and field), Ken.” I am so sick of politicians and extremists of all stripes I am ready for a little escapism when I get on a website supposed to be about old folks track and field.
all the democracy and freedom of speech is for nothing if you do not speak up……
The USA Constitution protects its citizens rights. It is really a interesting read, especially if done with an open mind. Yes, it protects freedom of speech and assembly and even the right to bear arms. But also the freedom from persecution for religion and origin. It is written to GIVE rights to ALL people, not remove them.
Please read it. Please embrace it and become a real American.
I’m with you Ken. Thanks for posting.
Must agree with Milan’s comment # 26.
I’m with you Ken. As an African American I’m appalled by what I can call me brothers who actually defend him on the “mainstream” broadcast. All I can suggest is, why don’t you go out their and attempt to mark with those you are defending and watch what they will do to you. I am 53 and have seen this on TV yet never would I even think I would be watch again in 2017. For those of you that agree and defend this please don’t hide its better to actually know a racist by face than one who hides behind a hood. 45 is a disgrace and anyone who can defend this latest is just as bad. American has gotten better 45 states since he’s been in office because of jobs ? Seriously your racist idiots. Its gotten worse and will continue to on your watch. Heres to this idiot getting nothing signed other than his executive orders that to this point is deregulating everything done in the past 8 years. Why ? Because the one who began the birther movement has a hate for anything that is not white. I am so angry right now and again any out there that can defend this idiot I only wish I could confront you in RI and smack some sense through your stupid ass head.
I never formally met you. We may have crossed paths on the runway. But after reading your view, you are a first place, first class, top drawer person. And when I return to the jumps, I personally would like to shake your hand.
Track and Field’s most famous momment was political. Understand history.
JAMES CLEVELAND OWENS!
Thanks for speaking out Ken.
Thomas.. How about you get out of your feelings. The only reason anyone would disagree with what Ken said is if that agree with what Trump said and they agree with what happened in Charlottesville. So, you upset at the fact that you on his site and he can post what he wants? It’s the truth. Get mad all you want, but, you didn’t have to read and he can write what he wants. So, Good day to you and your sensitive feelings.
Mike W. I had not seen the quote from the city cop mentioned in my second post when I submitted the first. You can mock me all you want, but facts are stubborn things, Your alt-left guys initiated the violence and the state and city police not only let them run wild, but delivered their victims to them. Put aside my speculation about the motives of their bosses, politicized policing should be troubling to you. Defacto repeal of the First Amendment should be troubling to you.
“Alt-Left”, Liberals, ANTIFA, BLM, “fake news”…I find it downright entertaining when I witness someone passionately state their disdain for the previously mentioned groups and organizations. Personally, I don’t care if your skin has leopard spots, you worship sunflowers and howl for the first three days of every full moon. I honorably spent the prime of my youth ready without hesitation to shed blood and draw my final breath defending the very liberties that White Nationalists, some Trump supporters, and narrow-minded bigots in general cower behind as their constitutional right. The knife cuts both ways: you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Having said all of that, let me bring it back to Track and Field: I am African American, but my love for the sport has no racial or ideological boundaries. From Jeff Mack and Jason Rouser, to Nate Sickerson and Craig Davis…I have a diverse group of friends and look forward to meeting more at each track meet. Remember my name and introduce yourself if we happen to be at the same meet!
Trump represents a ‘white identity’ culture whose followers are slavishly devoted. Trump’s culture is clear from his background – his father Fred arrested at a KKK rally in the 20’s, D. Trump cited for housing discrimination against minorities, the perpetuation of the racist birther conspiracy, the campaign citing minorities, immigrants and the free press as enemies, the promise to build a wall, etc… The culture that brought about the Charlottesville Nazis and confederates is clear. What is also clear is that Trump is in trouble and when Mueller completes his investigation into his collusion and financial crimes, these slavishly devoted Trump supporters will be faced with a choice: Do you support America, US Law Enforcement, US Intel, the US Constitution? Or do you support a racist authoritarian criminal? That is the choice you’ll be facing. Make the the right decision or you do not deserve to wear the USA Team uniform.
I’m trying to figure out here what the website is for, to promote track and field or open another venue for politics. Don’t we get enough on that with all the media hype on the air or printed.
i would just like to be able to read something and be able to enjoy a few minutes of something rather than politics and divisiveness.
My politics are mine, which I sometimes share on websites that cater to that.
“Alt-left”???
Until two days ago, there was no “alt-left”. That’s a Trump construct, as I see it, to make a non-racist point of view merely the flip-slide of those of the “alt-right” (anti-Semitic, anti-racist, and, really, anti mainstream American values since 1775). As such, in our home, “alt-left” has zero standing, and I urge you, Ken, to relegate the use of “alt-left” in your home and on your web site to the trash bin. To use “alt-left” is to play into the hands of our egocentric, nuke-threatening loose cannon of a President “of the Free World” who is (IMO) terminally self-destructing in front of the eyes of the World (and, the sooner the better).
“Alt-left” to pinkos like me is akin to “Deplorables” on the other side. A badge of honor.
With you all the way Ken.
So, you want us to choose between the ALT-Right or the ALT-Left. Problem is that anything ALT equals intolerance which equals hate. Some posters want us to watch videos about Nazism and Hitler. Quick history lesson that most people don’t know about post-WWI Germany, the power vacuum was actually fought between the ALT-right and the ALT-left. Of course, in Germany, the ALT-right (Nazism won). However, if you look east, you will see a similar struggle occurred in Russia. The ALT-left (communists) prevailed and the result wasn’t any better for humanity. In fact, Stalin is said to be responsible for the deaths of 60 million.
Here’s an idea – how about trying to be a rational, logical being that finds the good in the world around you and rejects extremism in all forms.
And I find it hilarious that so many want to blame Trump. Trump didn’t cause this – but unfortunately, he is the result of extremism on both sides. And those of you that write you are excited about the dying of old whites, you should look in the mirror – you are as racist as the ones you write about. And besides, those idiots out there on both sides look pretty young to me.
Learn from history – YOU CAN’T DEFEAT HATE WITH HATE. Again, reject extremism in all forms. If not, history will, indeed, repeat itself in one ALT form or the other. Sadly, it looks like a lot of you have already joined one group or the other.
“Make the right decision or you don’t deserve to wear the USA Team uniform”??? “Elderly whites” are a “dying breed”?? I can’t believe what I just read. I’m sure some of our elderly white athletes such as Kathy Bergen and Bob Lida would love to read such drivel. Post #40 by Rusty has my vote for the most measured non-inflammatory comment on this subject – Don’t get sucked into the extremist viewpoints which only serve to divide us. Bravo, Rusty.
Donald Trump is not a bigot ! Get over it…..he won the race….and like it or not…..he’s the president for at least 4 years. As soon as I see a bunch of name calling….I turn off the news.
Thanks for saying how you feel. If those you on hear don’t like his views or the website, just simply leave. Some people are obviously showing their true colors and thoughts. Some opinions of people on here need to do some serious soul searching.
#42- stirring up the haters to get elected is fact, that happened, we all saw it and it incited what we are seeing now. This is a national crisis and we have to learn from the past, respect all viewpoints even if we don’t agree, and come to a new place based on real discussion and compassion. I agree with Rusty, don’t buy into this fringe crap. I am praying we remember “All Men and Women are created equal” and that symbols and rhetoric are powerful, hate language is real. I am the happiest when I am with my Track Family, we are the real Americans to me. I agree I wish the world worked the way we do! Peace TrackFam
My only problem with posts # 40 & 41 is that in today’s world, “extremism” is associated with any idea or person who you don’t agree with. In a reasonable world, we should be able to express different viewpoints and hopefully come to understand each other. It does not mean that we have to agree on every point.
Two corrections:
If Ken, as a Jew, I, as a Catholic and our black friends were at that K.K.K. parade in La Mesa we would all have been at risk . That is the evil of
of the K.K.K.
#41 Kathy Bergen IS NOT ELDERLY
Iâm 100% with Ken. Iâm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but go to YouTube and watch the film âDonât Be a Sucker.â Itâs from 1947, but it could have been made this week.
Wow am I glad to be a Canadian
Ed, I just watched the film. Sadly, it does sound like it was made today and Bert summed up the dangers in his comment.
I am with you, Ken.
Rusty gets the gold.
You may choose to look the other way but you can never say again that you did not know.
–William Wilberforce
Ken, thanks for writing your post during these important times. I am disgusted by the comments coming from our president.
I’m not American by birth; I’m a proud American by choice. Hate speech, swastikas, and Nazi uniforms are outlawed in my ancestral country, Germany. Walking in a demonstration where flags with swastikas are proudly displayed? Have you learned nothing from history? Defending this despicable behavior as people just expressing their rights to assemble and their freedom of speech is inexcusable.
Each Memorial Day, I’m honoring 20 young American airmen who died when their planes came down in my ancestral village in Germany. They fought what those swastikas stand for, unspeakable evil.
In my childhood in the ’50s, children were forced to watch film footage of concentration camps. After that traumatic experience, I eyed all adults with suspicion: “How could you let this happen?” Today I speak up. I will always speak up. You have to kill me to silence me. And I will not silently stand by as you go after minorities and other undesirables before you come for me.
Stefan # 55 – well said
I believe Stefan’s post is the gold standard on this topic, thank you for that! I’ve been in our sport since 1968 as a young boy and to this day, it has been a beacon of diversity to me and most others I’ve known. I tell my experiences and stories to others in other areas of life’s pursuits, both personal and professional.
I know of no other sport or organization that can claim same regarding diversity and tolerance. While the athletics world and T&F is far from perfect, it seems to me that this is as close as it gets in this regard.
I’m sure we all have differences on various issues, but it is hard for me to believe that one whom participates to a substantial degree in our sport supports anything less than equal opportunity and respect for all peoples.
Thanks again Stefan and Ken Stone for highlighting and opining on this issue.
LaDonna Gooden posted this Monday on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-track-field-can-save-our-nation-ladonna-gooden
How Track & Field Can Save Our Nation
A week ago today, I competed in a World Masters Regional Track & Field Meet in Toronto, Canada as White Nationalists rallied in Charlottesville, Virginia. My Canadian friends asked me to explain what it all meant. In truth, I do not understand the motives of those that would seek to divide our Nation, but I have contemplated what would be a solution.
As I looked around the track that day, I saw people of all ages, sizes and shapes representing the United States proudly. And I began to ponder what would happen if the citizens of the United States acted like the members of this track and field team.
Iâve heard how we should stop referencing our differences and focus solely on that which unites us. Yet, somehow that solution doesnât ring true. It is certainly elegant for its simplicity, but track and field provides another way.
In Toronto, we were 400 strong, unified as Team USA. The image of Team USA is a mosaic of different backgrounds and disciplines. As individuals we were proud to represent our country. As athletes, we each contributed to the strength of the US team in unique ways — as sprinters, distance runners, jumpers, racewalkers and throwers. Our abilities varied as we had representation from para athletes, former Olympians and novice runners.
We were not unified because we didnât talk about our differences. We were unified because we appreciated and valued the very differences that make us formidable as Team USA. As a hurdler, I want good facilities for our throwers, even though it is not my event. As a sprinter, I am willing to compromise on location because distance runnersâ needs may differ from my own. Whether you were first, or last, you were part of our team, Americaâs team. We want the best for each other. Somehow, in athletics, we can celebrate the unique stories and contributions made by others without feeling diminished. It is the warm embrace of our diversity, which makes us a better, stronger team.
But more than diverse, athletics is an inclusive sport and the best example of what we should aspire to achieve at home in the United States. I would contend that we must be willing to embrace our differences and seek solutions that uplift people across the Nation. In my view, this is the best path to move us closer to that elusive goal of a more perfect union and the real Team USA.
The opinions expressed here are those solely of the author. LaDonna Gooden competes as Masters Track and Field athlete. #trackandfield #diversity #inclusion
On my Facebook feed I have chosen to unfollow a lot of very nice people who felt it was needed to fill me in on their politics or religion…
As someone that was actually there observing for the press, I would say to label the Alt Right as a hate group without hearing their message is uninformed. These are not the hate mongers the leftist controlled press claims they are, I have never heard one of their leaders incite violence. They are a bunch of tactless people, for sure. Both sides had several idiots parading around, but the Antifa leftist were bused in and should have not been there. Assuming lawsuits will follow since the mayor told the police to stand down. Last time I looked, even people we don’t agree with have freedom of speeches rights. The Brandenburg vs. Ohio case is a good place to start reading. And just for the record, I did my Masters Thesis in history on the events leading up to WWII, not endorsing the Third Reich by any means, if Hitler and the NSDAP hadn’t seized power in 1933, Western Europe would have most likely fallen to the communist. Stalin killed 60 million of his own citizens, the six million Jews killed by the Third Reich has been disputed and revised several times. Stick to what you actually know and do well, writing about track and field.
Tom [#59] the beauty of our country is that you do have the freedom to “unfollow” those that you don’t agree with or don’t want to hear. If you did choose to read any of the comments, Stefan’s #55 would be the one to look at.
I have a feeling that maybe the term “Alt Left” is not understood correctly. It refers to the Fringe, the people more than two standard deviations from the mean on a Bell Curve. It contains people who’s ideology is violent, totalitarian, and a-typical of Leftwing politics. Many people are flippant with labels and polarization these days. Most don’t know what “socialism” is, and think the USA ISN’T a socialist economy! Others think “Progressive” and “Liberal” are the same thing. Or don’t know what Libertarianism actually is (much closer to Liberalism than it is to Conservatism).
To me, claiming to be in this fringe is the same as claiming to be in the Alt Right.
That’s why I think a level headed person who claims allegiance must not actually know what the Alt Left is. You don’t have to be a radical extremist to be opposed to this administration.
In Germany, they just put 87 year old Holocaust-Denier Ursula Haverbeck in jail. She deserved it.
I had never heard of Ursula Haverbeck before so I did a bit of research. Thank God for the United States and the First Amendment. Yes, this woman is (at best) a nutjob, but Freedom of Speech, even speech we disagree with, is one of the principles the US was founded on and a protected right.
Shame on any country for putting a 88 year old in jail for her speech.
RE: Greg Theologes. Yes, Socialists like to persecute thought crimes, when it is counter to their beliefs. Coming soon to the USA unless real Americans take a stand.
Like Greg, I had never heard of Ursula Haverbeck either and did a little research as well and she may be more than just a nut job. but Apparently, her husband was in the Nazi party and she has cointinued his “work”. The laws in Germany may be different but I believe that her charges included sedition which is a more serious issue even in the US.
Now you see what I was relating to in my comments( #37).
Do we really want to get into these right/left, political mine fields.
Think about it.
Sheetcaking. Sounds like a plan.
In Germany, anyone who publicly denies, endorses or plays down the extermination of Jews during Adolf Hitler’s regime can be sentenced to a maximum of five years in jail. Scary. She’s a disgusting old Nazi but it appears freedom of speech doesn’t exist in Germany. The best defense is to not give these people any type of publicity or attention. Let them shout to an empty theatre.
One final word. Calling the German chancellor Angela Merkel a socialist and with it Germany a socialist society is like calling Ayn Rand a follower of Karl Marx. There is a little difference between First Amendment rights to vigorous debates and tough talks and calls to ‘exterminate’ minorities and undesirables.If you believe, like Miss Ursula does, that Hitler was on a divine mission, please tell me what the Allied forces were on, an evil mission?
Stephan, well said
Freedom of speech is never absolute. All countries, including the USA, impose limits on free speech. In the US the categories of speech that fall outside of its protection include obscenity, child pornography, defamation, speech owned by others (copyright, plagiarism etc), false advertising, false statements of fact, incitement to violence and true threats of violence. Within those categories, there are tests that have to be met in order for the speech to be illegal.
False statements of fact and incitement to violence are the two which would apply to extremist groups on either side. However, the Supreme Court tends to set the bar for illegality very high, higher than most other countries. So incitement to violence has to incite an immediate breach of the peace rather than just mere advocacy.
Even so, there are many in the US that would like to clamp down on free speech. Several states have had laws against blasphemy even though such laws violate the U.S. Constitution. Pennsylvania enacted a blasphemy law in 1977, which was struck down by the U.S. District Court in 2007. The last conviction for blasphemy in the U.S. took place in Arkansas in 1928.
Flag burning is another action that is currently protected by the 1st Amendment though there have been many attempts to get a Flag Desecration Amendment through Congress. The last one stalled in 2006.
Unfortunately, most people’s opinion on free speech is more a refection on whether they sympathize with the speaker rather than a cold constitutional analysis of the speech itself.
The white supremacists and nazi are the skum of the earth and I would gladly participate in the execution of the driver if he received the death penalty. But Trump was right both sides were at fault for the violence and you can add the Mayor and police to that. Antefa is also the scum of the earth.
If these retarted Nazi’s were left alone to make fools of themselves nothing would have happened and they would have looked just plain stupid.
Ken stick to track and field posts!!
As an alt left member do you think you’ll really enjoy the throwing
bricks at police, destroying property, arson, rioting, denying free speech, and murdering police officers?
“Alt” means fanatic in either direction.
There are many places for people to vent about their political frustrations. Let’s please keep this forum devoted to our common passion of track and field, and keep politics OUTTA HERE!
I don’t give two hoots what anyone else thinks about politics within this forum.
Thank you.
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