Team manager fesses up to dropping the 4×4 baton
A few days ago, a sprinter friend pointed out that two American silver medalists in the 400 at Riccione didn’t compete for Team USA in the 4×4 relays the final day at worlds. He noted that M40 Robert Thomas (the American indoor record holder) and M50 Thomas Jones weren’t on the U.S. quartets that fell short of gold in the relays. Here’s the M40 relay result, and here’s the M50 relay result. Today, USA team manager Phil Greenwald replied to my query, saying: “Robert Thomas was, if I recall correctly, on the declaration for the 4×400 (I know he was on the 4×100). That morning, he told me that due to an injury in his foot, he would not be able to run.â€
Phil continued:
“Tom Jones was my error — I somehow dropped him from the list and nobody corrected me when I read the list at the team meetings. By the time it was brought to my attention, the time for declaring the team had passed.â€
Sorry to hear this. But since Team USA finished 11 seconds behind M50 champion Germany, Tom’s presence might not have made much a difference.
In any case, I welcome your thoughts on how relays are chosen at worlds.
Should the team manager continue to have final say, or should a more democratic process be used? Take our poll!
12 Responses
Cousins. The Team Manager should have the final say. But once the relay team has been declared and in particular – has passed the Call Room – formally it is out of his hands.
At a pinch you could try invading the track with your relay runner immediately prior to the relay race. The British Team Manager tried that at the 2006 World Masters Indoors Linz. The WMA will not mind.
Anthony Treacher
M65 British Athlete and BMAF-designated Asshole
The team manager (Phil Greenwald)announced several times that an athlete interested in running on a relay team should sign the “book”. He also made it very clear just what the time restraints were for submitting the teams and making changes. He read the list of teams at one of the team meetings – there were opportunities for people to object, for changes to be made, and in fact there were some disagreements over who was and who was not listed.
Changes were made both at the team meeting and afterwards. That a mistake was made is not surprising given the difficulty of getting to the team meetings at the main stadium which in fact was not the main stadium – most of the events were in the other two stadiums some distance away. There is no way to post the teams for people to look at in their leisure – other countries do not do this – why should the US post its relay teams? If interested athletes are not at these meetings – then there really is no way to find out who is and who is not on a relay team.
For some of the age groups it is a matter of who is still around and willing and able to run, for the younger men – it is a much more competitive process and some disagreements over who should or should not be on the team, an alternate and the like. The current process is imperfect but having a vote – gimme a break – will we have voting booths- who will make sure that no one is voting more than once? In those age groups where there are many available – perhaps those athletes should consult with each other to come up with the most competitive team possible and present that list to the team manager for discussion. They know each other and see each other when they are running their events.
It was not a case of the team manager declaring “this is it and shut up”. There was discussion.
To me there is also the issue of athletes who sign up and are placed on a relay team and then announce at the last moment that “oh I am leaving, I will not be here” leaving that team to scramble around to notify the team manager before the deadline for making changes.
And frankly I wish Mr Treacher would get over himself – his issue with the Brits has no relevance to this discussion.
This is a tough one. I agree that the Team Manager should have final decision on relay team makeup, and should primarily be based upon the premise of the four fastest qualifiers. In the case of the situation described in the article, I also strongly recommend that it is the responsibility of each qualifier to keep in contact with the Team manager and the other relay qualifiers to avoid what happened
I was thinking along the same line as Warren Graff. There were quite a few communication issues. Perhaps it might be a good idea to have ‘relay declaration cards’ included in each registration packet. Those who are interested in competing on the relays could list their contact/hotel information, sign, and submit the declaration card to the team manager. Perhaps it might not be a bad idea to post the selection results somewhere prior to the cut off time for declaring the team.
I think Phil Greenwald did a good job handling disputes and attempting to resolve concerns diplomatically. That’s a big task! Hopefully we can continue to make suggestions on how to utilize the wealth of talent we have on the USA team.
Linda 🙂
Mary you wrote:
“There is no way to post the teams for people to look at in their leisure – other countries do not do this – why should the US post its relay teams?”
Actually foreign teams do post their relay teams. Essentially, the British Team Manager first pins up the relay details on the British team space requesting relay candidates to write their names and best times for the distance. The Team Manager then selects the four relay runners and the substitute(s)and posts their names. When in doubt, he simply specifes additional substitutes. Immediately prior to the relay, the designated relay team and substitutes then meet and it all sorts itself out.
It is a very good system and I recommend it.
Does anyone know if Thomas Jones is the same Thomas Jones that ran for my alma mater William Paterson University, in the mid 1970’s?
re the British “method”, I hear from a Brit friend that the team manager leaves it to the athletes to sort themselves out about relays – as Mr Treacher has suggested above in his note. The person who told me that did not think it a good system and when told of the US method – said that would be preferable. I suppose it depends upon the number of athletes available and how well they know each other I don’t know if this would work for the US where we have active team managers and organizing the relays is part of the duties. I do not see the point of keeping the lists under wraps – anyone can look at the results online and figure out which countries are likely to have good teams.
Certainly some system that puts more of the responsibility on the individual to make known their willingness to run as well as the time they achieved in the event (100,400) would be good. For many of the age groups it really is a matter of who is available and willing to run, for a few teams – it is really competitive – that is really where the problems arise – not with the age groups where there are few available and it is a matter of finding bodies willing to run.
The real problems will arise in 2011 in Sacramento where there will be large numbers of US athletes in most age groups- that is when the real problems may arise. Not for me however as I will be in the W 75-79 age group and there it is literally a matter of “survival” and who is still upright and able to move forward by the end of the meet. I hope I will be in that “select” group at that time and not reclining horizontally underground.
Sorry Mary, you have misunderstood me. I did not “suggest” at all that the British team manager leaves it to the athletes to sort themselves out about relays.
Quite the contrary. If you read carefully, the essential part of what I wrote was:
“The Team Manager then selects the four relay runners and the substitute(s)and posts their names.” That and what I otherwise wrote makes a perfectly viable system for selecting the relay team. And please PM me the name of your British friend who suggested otherwise and I will see to it that he/she is immediately locked up in the Tower for high treason.
Mary, you and your contact were quite correct. It is Mr Treacher who is out of touch.
At the last four major championships, including the recent Worlds, the GB teams have operated a system for deciding names and running order, which we call “peer selection”. Any Team Manager is very “light touch”. Selection is based on the names athletes have themselves declared on the list on the team notice-board. This is posted early on in the championships and is a useful way of picking up any obvious omissions and following these up. Usually one finds they are going home early, and won’t therefore be available.
As the athlete’s meeting isn’t held until just before declarations need to be made, it helps weed out injured athletes too. In Riccione, for example, we were able to hold the meeting after the 400m finals, and had the best idea who was going well, etc. There’s almost always more names than places in the team, so it gives you an immediate list of reserves who are able and willing to step in at short notice if necessary.
That the system works well is, I believe, evidenced by the results!
?¢‚Ǩ?ìRacing and hunting excite man’s heart to madness.?¢‚Ǩ¬ù So said Lao-Tzu. Clear rules and wise choices should be left to team managers after consultation with the natural leaders in the respective age group. The German Track & Field Association allows only the athletes into team meetings discussing the relay teams. It was rare that an athlete raised hell but it was getting out of control with the spouses. Life-long feuds and animosities started in team meetings for relays! Now, the four athletes with the best times in the individual events will be the first selection. However, if an athlete at major championships was still hurt in the 100 m individual races but recovered in time for the 200 m and ran better than the fourth fastest 100 m sprinter, he would get in the pool. Also, it would be ill advised in the younger age groups to get a real fast guy on the 4 x 1 if he never or very rarely ran a relay. To sum it up, set clear rules, be open for short(!) discussions and have an intermediary, the team manager.
The morning of the relays I told Phil that my I had a foot injury and that I would not be able to run the relays. My left foot started bothering me before the 400 final. I didn’t notice it while I was running the final but it was really tender that night after the event. The Planter Fascitis in my right foot was really starting to flare up the morning of the relays, so the fact that we had some alternates for the relays I stepped down. Contrary to want others may think I was just as disappointed that I didn’t run, but at the same time our bodies do not heal as fast as they once did and I had to make a decision that was best for me. By the time they ran the 4 x 400 I could have run. My feet were not nearly as tender as they were earlier in the morning but the alternate had already been told that he was running and I was not willing to take that oppurtunity away from him. World Indoors is only six months away any major injury would have severly jeapordize my chances of competing in that competition.
I do think however the athletes shoud have just as much of a say so in the relays as the team manager. Just because you run the 100 prelims shouldn’t guarantee you a spot on a relay when you run a time that is not competitive. All of us train very hard and sacrifice a lot to go to these competitions. The relays are not fun relays I do not think the purpose of the relays is just to put a team on the track. It is to put the most competitive team available on the track. I signed up to run on the 4 x 100 relay and I was told that since I didn’t run the open 100 I probably would not be allowed to run the 4 x 100. I said ok even though I knew that there was only two other athletes that ran the 100 that were faster than me and I also knew that neither one of them were staying around for the relays. Several of the guys from the M35 ask me if I would run a 4 x 100 with them since they didn’t have enough guys to run a relay and I said sure. Then Phil comes back to me and after I run the 200 and says that the M40 has rights to me before I can drop down and run with the M35 and I say I thought I was not eligible to run with the M40 since I didn’t run the 100 and he says based on your 200 time you are eligible. I did not know we could use 200 times to qualify for the relay. This is were some of the confusion starts in what events are being used to qualify for the relay.
There were sevaral of us that showed up at the track on the last off day to work on hand offs. None of the team managers were there, no batons and most of the athletes that say they wanted to run the relays not around. You can’t expect to run a relays if you don’t make the time to practice handoffs. Especially in the 4 x 100. If it is more important to you to go sightseeing then go sightseeing. If you want to run a relay then expect to come to the track on both off days from competition and work on relay handoffs and order of the relay legs.
I agree with Robert Thomas that you want to put the strongest relay team on the track. We represent the US and we want the fastest athletes to represent our country. I would break it down like this:
1. It should be the responsibility of the athletes to make it known to the Team Manager that they are interested in running in a relay.
2. It is the responsibility of the athlete to make it known how fast they can run in that event, regardless if they ran it in that current competition.
a. For example, Robert Thomas is one of the fastest 100 meter sprinters in his age group but may not run it in that track meet because he is busy breaking records at 400 meters
b. or Don Drummond is another fast 100 meter sprinter but it is busy winning gold medals in both hurdle events.
3. It should be the responsibility of the Team Manager to make the final decision of the relays after having a discussion with all prospective sprinters. The Team Manager should be the voice of reason but not an obstacle in the selection process. The sprinters know who is fast and what combination of 4 sprinters from the all prospective sprinters will perform best on the track.
4. There should be no automatic exclusion from the relays just because they did not run that event in the Competition. A 400m competitor should be eligible for the 4×100 and an 800m competitor should be eligible for the 4×400, if they are faster than the other proposed sprinters. If the other athletes know that they can be one of the 4 fastest on that day then they should run. A sprinter should not be discarded or eliminated from the selection process because they didn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t run in that event. (ie a 400m sprinter not eligible for the 4x100m relay) There are sprinters that can run sub 2 minute 800m and run low 11 seconds in the 100m.
5. The proposed relay athletes should get together, as a united front, and discuss: who runs the fastest 100m, who is healthy, who has a nagging injury and who will be around to compete
We are all adults and we do practice hard and continue to push our bodies to the limit. We need to put the best athletes on the track and the Athletes are closer to the action than the Team Manager. The Team Manager is the leader and gives guidance but the Athletes are on the track and they should decide the best team on the track.
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