More details on Landover nationals: 4 got expenses paid
Jay Jacob Wind
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Jay Jacob Wind, secretary of the Potomac Valley Track Club, which hosted the recent Landover indoor nationals, has posted a revelatory comment on my entry regarding Henry Rono.Ā Turns out I didnāt know the quarter of it.Ā He says that he and masters publicist Bob Weiner privately brought in four athletes ā Rono, Phil Raschker, John Tuttle and Joan Benoit-Samuelson. And Henry and Joanie also got appearance fees. Fortunately ā and significantly āĀ none of this money came out of other entrantsā pockets, or from the Local Organizing Committee. Three days ago, I had written meet director Craig Chasse (pronounced Chessy), and he replied: āNo, we did not pay for anyoneās travel, housing etc.,Ā nor did we authorize anyone else to do it; that was done entirely by private individuals on their own behalf.ā So I erred in taking Henry literally when he said āmeet organizersā flew him out from New Mexico. More accurately, it was meet organizers privately paid their way. So my apologies on missing the nuance. Iām revising my article for Masters Athlete magazine.
Jay Wind, in his late 50s,Ā is an accomplished marathonerĀ and race/meet director. He also writes a running column for the D.C.-area Arlington Sun Gazette.
Hereās what Jay posted on my blog last night:
12 Responses
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Mary Harada - April 3, 2009
So Joan had a personal lap counter – how nice – and why was that needed? She was out in front, any one who can count to 15 would know if she had run 15 laps. Did Kathy Martin merit a personal lap counter too? She was just behind Joan – and actually age graded better than Joan – but who noticed? (I did too- but really NO ONE cares a fig what an old fart does- when we look slow – people doze)
As for the rest of us – the peasants in the race – as far as I could tell – there were no lap counters for us – aside from the person who yelled 5 at me when I had 6 to go. And absolutely NO ONE was paying attention to those of us at the back of the pack. I finished my 15 laps – counted by myself and carefully documented by a clubmate who wrote down my lap times on a lap counting sheet I brought with me as I have long given up on ever seeing a split sheet from a lap counter. But the very nice woman who stopped right behind me and was credited with a 15.08 – actually ran 14 laps. I know because I lapped her.
And while I am on a roll here – how come one of my club mates was listed as unattached on the results sheets and our club awarded NO Points for her results. She emailed several times to get her club affiliation on the competitor’s list. It finally turned up online only to disappear on the results sheet. Not that we won anything – but another sign of the chaos that obviously was running wild with the folks running the software for the timing and results.
Ok – end of rant – it is a cloudy raw day here in New England – mud season – pollen season – none of this improves my disposition today.
A virtual bunch of flowers for Bob Wiener and Jay Jacob Wind for putting out the $ to bring in some stars. I did not know that, I don’t think they did it for personal publicity – they did it for the good of Masters running. Thanks. -
Jay Jacob Wind - April 3, 2009
I wasn’t Joan Benoit’s personal lap counter. I counted the laps and called the times for all the women in the W50-54 heat. I’m sorry that I missed Kathryn Martin’s extra lap. My bad.
I wrote incorrectly the amount that Bob and I paid Joan. The correct amount was $2,000, of which Bob paid $1,250 and I paid $750.
It was worth every penny.
Our sport has stars. Joan is a genuine star. Welcoming her to the meet — and watching her set a world record — was the fulfillment of this Chicago-born sports fan’s dream.
I grateful to everyone who came to the meet to run, walk, jump, throw, help, or just watch. I’m sorry that the results are delayed — the team is working to retrieve the data. I beg your patience. -
Kathy Martin’s laps were miscounted – you joke – how could that happen? I was not aware of that.
My comments were more to the point that aside from counting Joan’s laps – and I am sure she was well aware of what she was doing and did not need anyone to tell her what lap she was on – was anyone counting the laps of the other competitors?
How on earth could Kathy Martin’s laps be miscounted – the numbers were turned as Joan – followed pretty closely by Kathy – and NO ONE lapped either Joan nor Kathy. Gimme a break.
However many of the rest of us were lapped – and NO ONE seemed to be paying attention. That was what I had anticipated – not just for the Landover meet – but for all meets where I run the 3k and 5k. I am over 70, I get lapped if there are younger faster runners in the same race. I know that, I anticipate that, I arrange for a friend to count for me, print out a lap counting sheet from the USATFNE website and hand it to my friend along with a stop watch.
And as usual – some ran too few and maybe some ran too many laps! this is not acceptable at a national meet – but it happens, it also happens at international meets. Why – because it is hard to manage multi-age group distance runs (and walks) and officials tend to underestimate the problem or forget about it until it is too late and the race results are a mess.
It was nice of Joan to come and bring the spotlight of fame with her. She does a lot for masters runners and I appreciate that.
Meanwhile – the meet was also about the rest of us – those who pay our own way, train for the meet, hope to do well, maybe even set a record only to have the timing screwed up and results missing.
I am indeed sorry that this happened – as it does cast a pretty big shadow over what otherwise was a very nice meet in a splendid facility. -
coreen steinbach - April 3, 2009
Joan did not set a World record but an American record besting Kathy’s record by only a second, I believe. I have done meets when there is a lap counter for EACH runner. This requires numerous volunteers and lots of extra people on the track. There were ostensibly individual counters for the 3k in Boise and it still was royally screwed up. Anyone doing a longer distance race on the track in ANY competition has to be able to count their own laps. You just cannot trust others to do it for you. If there are questions – as Mary noted where someone ran 14 laps – it HAS to be corrected via video tape but I guess there were problems with that as well in Landover.
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MIke Sullivan - April 3, 2009
Mr J. Jacob Wind, Thanks for running the Nationals……I visited from Az. to race Mr. Lonnie Hooker, nice gentleman by the way, I had a great time. Always nice to be around such positive indiviuduals. You guys did a great job running the meet, can’t please everyone all the time. No one counted my laps either but then again I only ran 1/2 a lap ha ha …Lifes to short to take a a sport or oneself to seriously.
By the way I got my butt kicked by Mr Hooker…
Have a Great Day….Mike Sullivan -
peter taylor - April 3, 2009
And now for my 2 cents. There were 14 runners in the race, which in my opinion means that only 5 lap counters were required. With a good sound system I (as announcer) could have taken 2 runners — Joan Benoit Samuelson and Kathy Martin. Because the system was not trustworthy, however, someone else could have been assigned Joan and Kathy. There would then need to be only 4 other lap counters, each of whom would have 3 runners.
The only overlap in names in this race was between Kathryn Martin (generally called Kathy) and Katherine Willis of Canada (generally called Katherine). The correct way to handle a race like this is for the 5 lap counters to speak individually to their 3 runners as each one passes through the finish line: “Twelve laps to go, Coreen.” “Nine laps to go, Trenice.” “Eight laps to go, Tami.”
With the overlap in names one lap counter could say, “Six laps to go, Kathy Martin,” while another could say “Five laps to go, Katherine Willis.” Ideally, they would be different lap counters.
Each lap counter should write down all 15 times (it’s a 15-lap race) for his/her 3 runners. That way, if a lap counter falls asleep, he or she can recover. If your runner has been doing her laps in 44 seconds and all of a sudden you have a lap of 1 minute and 28 seconds you know you missed one.
One other thing: This was the championship of the United States, and thus each runner was owed a great deal of consideration by those running the meet. Agree with Coreen Steinbach that you have to be able to count your own laps, but this should be only for subsequent challenges. One more thing: The lap counters should become absolutely familiar with the appearance of their 3 runners, as even numbers can be a problem (they fall off, etc.). -
Ken Stone - April 3, 2009
Sean Callahan of Masters Athlete magazine has posted my revised article, labeling it “Rono Redux.”
http://www.masters-athlete.com/public/747.cfm
I’ve asked Sean to incorporate the latest money figures posted by Jay. He corrected the numbers he first posted yesterday. -
Andrew Hecker - April 3, 2009
This is the current, newly amended 2009 rule regarding Lap Scoring. You would think the National Championships would be the example of proper procedures. Were these followed?
RULE 131
LAP SCORERS
1. Lap Scorers shall keep a record of the laps covered by each competitor in races
longer than one mile. For races of 3 miles and over (3000 meters and over in
indoor races), Lap Scorers shall also record on their lap scoring cards the times
over each lap (as given them by an Official Timer) of the competitors for whom
they are responsible. No Lap Scorer shall be responsible for more than three
competitors (six in the case of ultramarathons and out of the stadium walking events).
NOTE: Whenever possible, an adequate number of trained lap scorers should be selected before the day of competition. -
Thank you, Andy Hecker. There were very serious problems in counting laps at our 2004 championships in Decatur (those assigned this responsibility apparently lost interest in their assignment; at least, that was my impression) and in 2005 in Honolulu (don’t know what the reason was there). Lap counting was then and is now extremely important and must not be seen as anything less.
I am far better at counting laps than I am at announcing, and I take pride in what I do (as those who have seen me count laps can attest). It’s extremely important indoors for the 800, 1 mile, 3000, and 3000 racewalk, and it’s absolutely critical outdoors for the 1500, 5000, 10,000, the steeplechase, and the 5,000 racewalk. As Andy Hecker indicates, it is actually covered by a rule (in this case rule 131). It is unthinkable to have a long race without lap times for each runner.
Many years ago, when I was just a young pup, I counted laps for a 10,000 at a masters track meet. In a very unusual circumstance, the parents of an M30 runner came up to me to say that their son had run 26 laps rather than the requisite 25.
I pulled out my lap sheet, which indicated that their young son was like a metronome — 90, 90, 90, 91, 90, or something similar for each lap (can’t remember the exact numbers, but he hardly budged at all from 90 seconds per lap). They walked away without saying a word. Had I either (a) put down an X each time their son ran by or (b) did nothing at all they might still be talking about this event. -
I was incorrect. Kathryn Martin did not miscount her laps. She ran a perfect 15.
Debbie Lee was the one who ran an extra lap before finishing. Late Friday afternoon, the medal-distribution volunteer called me with Debbie Lee and Lourdes Fernandes, the Brazilian star, at her side. Debbie admitted that she ran an extra lap, and she and Lourdes agreed that Debbie was ahead to Lourdes for the whole race.
I figured out instantly that Debbie’s extra lap didn’t matter. No matter whether Debbie ran 15 or 16 laps, Debbie won a silver medal as second USA finisher, behind Joan Benoit Samuelson; and no matter whether Lourdes was ahead or behind Debbie at the finish, Lourdes won a gold medal as first non-USA finisher.
Should we have had oficial lap-counters at every long race? Yes.
Did we? No. Sorry about that. -
USATF athlete and official - April 7, 2009
As a USATF official and an athlete, I know that meet management makes sure that all of the “important officials” have “important jobs”- if you know what I mean…..I have learned that the officials who do not care about their ego take the “dirty jobs” like counting laps. I once asked an official a long time ago who was well respected why he insisted on taking 5th place timing. He said, “any fool can pick first place and each kid deserves to to have an official working a meet like this was the ‘Olympics'”
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Anonymous - April 7, 2009
Shouldn’t Lourdes have been awarded a Bronze Medal as the third place finisher overall and then the next US finisher also be given the Bronze as the 3rd American.
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More details on the ‘Tony Plaster disaster’ at Boston
In addition to Steve Vaitonesā version of events at Boston, I received this note from a witness (whose name Iāve chosen to withhold): āI witnessed TonyĆ¢ā¬ā¢s lap-counting misfortune, and while the officiating certainly contributed to the situation by not having enough lap counters, I would think that Tony also bears some responsibility. While there was no clock at the finish on Friday, an official at the finish line was verbally calling out the elapsed time as each runner passed, and there was also a huge overhead clock that runners could see after the first turn.ā
5 Responses
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pino pilotto - March 28, 2007
Ken, you write: “Thank God my event doesn’t exceed a lap.” But you don’t say that because of lap-counting, you say that because you can’t be to lapped (like me). LOL.
Serious now: Like in wma 2006 in Linz 2006, now also in evaci 2007 Helsinki there was a problem in lap-counting in the 3000 m race. Take a look at the results of the M45 race 3000 m on Thursday 22: Like my English my Finish isn?Ā¢āĆĀØāĆĀ¢t perfect, but I think that ?Ā¢āĆĀØ?ƬKilpailun ulkopuolella?Ā¢āĆĀØĀ¬Ć¹ means that some mans runs only 2800 m (in this race there was children for lap-counting?Ā¢āĆĀØĀ¬Ā¶) -
KimW - March 29, 2007
I don’t know any of the folks involved but I was at trackside watching right at the finish line. I do know that when someone at least two other guys that had just finished started yelling to him that he had a lap to go. So there was no question that it was brought to his attention when he finished that, at least in their opinions, he was down a lap.
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I agree that the athlete is responsible for counting his/her own laps regardless of the event. In the 3k, 5k, 10k on the track that can be difficult as it is very easy to lose count. However knowing one’s likely split times will make it less likely that the runner will stop short thinking that a miracle has just happened!
More often than not the lap counters are very good but when they are not – it can be a disaster if the competitor has not taken charge or had someone else counting and writing down splits. This is a constant problem at WMA meets – and national meets, and even more so at smaller meets – lack of enough officials or volunteers to do it properly can be a problem in some cases, poor instruction to officials or volunteers can be another one,and then there are the meets where one is told to “count your own laps” – even in shorter races – Dartmouth Relays this year in the 1500m!
One of these days I will write an article about lap counting debacles I have witnessed or experienced.
The long and the short of it is – take charge of your own race – count your laps yourself or get someone you trust to do it for you – have them write down your splits, do not depend upon the race officials to do it for you – and when they do, thank them for doing such a great job. If you have your own record of your splits in writing – then you can challenge the official results should you think you have been miscounted.
Or – take up sprinting! -
Milan Jamrich - March 29, 2007
I do not know any details about this run, but in a meeting of this size mishaps will happen. Is anybody really expecting that everything works 100%? In general, this is a very well organized meeting. I think, if any specific group of athletes has a concern, they should send an email to the organizers before the meeting to remind them of potential problems. This might focus their attention on one of the hundreds of potential problems they have to deal with. Lets keep in mind that some of these problems are “master track”-specific (different age groups, visually impaired runners, intolerance of high temperature etc.). Milan
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Reid Harter - March 29, 2007
As an interested party in the race in question I will make a couple of comments, and I trust that these comments are interpreted to neither defend or offend any parties. Tony Plaster is an excellent athlete and if he continues in the sport he will earn his national medal. Like many of us, I have served in multiple capacities in the sport: athlete, coach, and official. Since 1965 I have participated, coached, or officiated distance events where leaders misjudged laps, or made wrong turns on the road and in cross country. In all those years some protests were filed by the mistaken athletes, and to my recollection none of them sustained. At last year’s outdoor championship I was disqualified for “impeding another athlete” in the 5000 meters. That was a first for me; never have I seen that in a distance race. The embarrasment of disqualification taught this forty year veteran in the sport to be two strides ahead of an athlete before I cut in. I thought I knew that!
Reid Harter
Boise, Idaho
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More details on Beccalli’s quest for Brazil worlds
Can a country host a world masters meet without bidding for it? Thatās the case here, I guess. WMA President Cesare Beccalli of Italy and Brazil is reported to be making a strong case for Brazil to host the 2011 outdoor championships ā even though a bid hasnāt been made by that country. āItās only a hope being encouraged by Cesare, who is ālooking into it,ā ā Pete Mulholland reports from Poland and the Eurovets meet. āI was under the impression that a bid (for 2011) might be engineered for London as an opportunity to test out the 2012 Olympic facilities, but that is just gossip at the moment.ā Love that gossip, though! Wouldnāt you love to compete on the same track as Olympians?
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Sure I would love to run on the same track as the Olympans but I would love it even more to compete at a WMA meet outside Europe. IF London bids for 2011 and wins, then we will have had European based meets for 8 years – even more since the indoor meets will continue to be Europe based on into the future. This will make the WMA look as much like a World meet as US Major league baseball “World Series” is a world event.
Hopefully some entity outside Europe will submit a bid for 2011, I am all for Brazil if a legitimate bid is forthcoming. Give another part of the world a chance at hosting a meet, make it possible for masters athletes who are not wealthy to attend a meet other than in Europe. Have the WMA be truly a “world” organization. I have nothing against London – I love the city, have lived and worked there, but lets put the word World back into WMA.
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More details on why Edwin Moses aborted his comeback
At the 2003 IAAF World Championships in Paris, Ed Moses announced a comeback with the goal of making the 2004 U.S. Olympic Trials. He bailed out in early 2004, finding that M45 hurdling takes a toll. He complained of knee injuries. A new interview with Moses provides a few more details.
One Response
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Courtland Gray - May 16, 2005
Let’s all welcome Ed Moses to the travails of training, competing, hurdling and living at age 50. Yeah, Ed, my knees hurt, too. And I was pulling for you. I was skeptical because I know the work it takes to achieve record times, but I was pulling for you.
In answer to questions, Bob Weiner and I split the cost of Joan Benoit Samuelsonās and Henry Ronoās appearance money ā $2,500 for Joan and $500 for Henry. Bob covered their hotel and airfares, and he also covered John Tuttleās and Phillipa Raschkerās hotel and airfares, out of accumulated points on his affinity cards.
Why whould we do such a thing?
For the good of the sport, and for the good of the meet. We have our stars. Growing up, I adored Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris. In 1962, my uncle Jack Dempsey (yes, THAT Jack Dempsey) came to Chicago and got box seats for my father and me, right behind the Yankees dugout at Comiskey Park. After batting practice, Mantle and Maris came over to greet Dempsey and signed my program. I was starstruck then, and I am today. Iāve met Michael Johnson multiple times, I directed the mile race at the Mobil Invitational where Steve Scott set the American masters mile record, I ran behind Jim Ryun at one Mobil meet and behind Rod Dixon at another, I sat with Joan Benoit in the back of the auditorium at the Chicago Marathon in 1982 and relived that moment with her last Saturday, and I looked forward eagerly to watch current stars like Kathryn Martin and Earl Fee shine brilliantly at the meet at Landover.
To get visibility for our niche sport ā Masters Track ā we need Heroes and American Idols. I reached deep into my pockets, and Bob reach deep into his, to make the 2009 USA Masters Indoor Track and Field Championship a beautiful jewel.
And a jewel it was, thanks to almost a thousand athletes and hundreds of volunteers and officials.
I regret that the timing did not achieve the level of excellence we sought for the meet. I deeply apologize for lost data, and I assure you that meet director Craig Chasse and chief timer Jules Lucas are working to recover lost data so that we can certify national and world records.
Those of you who know me, you know me as a problem solver. During my hours at the meet Friday and Saturday, I moved from station to station, assuring that each station was going smoothly. I personally timed and counted laps for the W50-54 3000m, and thus I was able to sort out a dispute re who ran 15 laps and who ran 16. I learned yesterday that other cases occurred of miscounted laps. I was not aware of those problems during them meet; else I would have positioned myself at the finish line with my personal set of lap counts, which were out in my car. Nor I was not aware of the timing system faults, else I would have gone up to the timing booth and solved whatever problems were occurring.
As Warren Beatty (another Arlingtonian) said, āI will strive to be better.ā The goal was a perfect meet. Correct timing is crucial to a perfect meet. As secretary of the meet, I apologize for our failure to deliver perfect timing.
There are no mysteries here. If you have any questions, you may contact me at 703-505-3567 or racedirector@att.net, or you may leave a message for meet director Craig Chasse at 703-481-3530.
Thank you
Jay Jacob Wind